Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Anska]

I'm afraid I have to nit-pick a little. Torygg said, that when he died his only regret was leaving Elisif behind, that's past and either before he died or while he was dying, either way before he set a spectral foot into Sovengard. So whatever rules may apply to the thoughts of a spirit in Sovengard, they don't yet apply for the dying Torygg. Apart from that, when we meet Ulfric in Sovengard, he is utterly devastated that he unwittingly sacrificed the souls of his people and helped Alduin to regain strength through his war. In my eyes, that is expressing care for his people and the world as such. I might add that neither have Gormlaith, Hakon and Felldir stopped to care for their worldly cause upon entering Sovengard and they have been there for quite a while. Still, if I take both of your arguments together, saying that once you enter Sovengard your priorities change and you only care about the things that personally/ privately matter to you most, it still leaves us with the same conclusion: Ulfric's deepest care is for his people (or the world as such) while Torygg's is for his wife and his unspoiled honor. Also, if Torygg really reduced the duel to his honor and his wife, this indicates he didn't have a clue about politics. Otherwise he would have had ample reason to by worried for his country in the very likely case of his death - especially if he was trying to keep the Empire united as Sithis suggests.

Yes, I have talked to Sybille. She helped raise Torygg and is very proud of her boy. I dare say, she's more than a little prejudiced in the matter. I am not sure if you read, what I wrote a couple of pages ago. I said there that Torygg probably was a good king by imperial standards - and Sybille definitely is an imperial. My point was, that the imperial standards aren't exactly everybody's standards. So, if you have different expectations in what makes a good king (e.g. that being a king is more of a 24/7 job than an overly well payed 9 hours a day, five days a week job) there are several points to argue that he wasn't such a great king after all.

Having said that, and because Sithis already mentioned something along these lines: Yes, I am currently trying to argue Ulfric's opinion in the matter, not my own. So, I am totally guilty of deliberately cutting Torygg short way more harshly than he might deserve. There are just so many fierce Imperial supporters around here at the moment, that it wouldn't be any fun to do anything else. :smile:

Edited April 7, 2013 by Anska

[RighthandofSithis]

Lmao

Grow up. This sort of behavior gets you compared to Stormhammer.

 

Now, I'm back. Where did all my comrades go?

[Anska]

No harm done. You haven't struck me as deliberately insulting or spiteful so far, so I didn't take it in a bad way. I'm glad I could amuse you.

 

Thank you for the quick defense though.

[sisterof]

Excellent points, Anska, about motivations after entering Sovengarde and so on.

@RighthandofSithis: If you mean the Stormcloak supporters, we're still here. HighKingUlfricStormcloak left because he's gonna be a father and has to prepare to train a little Stormcloak, he may jump in when he has the time. I don't know about Lithium Flower, probably in the same boat as me with stuff getting in the way of fun.

I'm quite less active this week and the next one because of work overload. I have a huge exam coming, some personal issues and my thesis that is still simply a skeleton of what it should be at this point. I check the forums every once in a while since I work mostly on my pc (and Gods bless amusing distractions), but answering requires way more engagement than I can provide at the moment. By next weekend I'll be spamming my precious thoughts all over the forums again. I'm sure everyone is holding their breaths in anticipation - so make your offerings to the Gods for my success. :biggrin:

[TheLoreSeeker]

"I said there that Torygg probably was a good king by imperial standards - and Sybille definitely is an imperial. My point was, that the imperial standards aren't exactly everybody's standards."

My issue with this argument is that "Imperial standards" ARE Skyrim's standards. Skyrim is part of the Empire...and it has been since there was an Empire to be part of. I've seen it mentioned over and over that "the High Kings were Imperial puppets" but in reality, Skyrim ISN'T a sovereign nation or an autonomous state that just being buddy buddy with or controlled by the Empire, it IS the Empire. Everyone in Skyrim is an Imperial citizen. It's the difference in relations between the US & the UK vs the US & Hawaii. Hawaii may be further from the center of government and have different cultural values and history...but its still affected by decisions made in DC. It's the same thing here.

 

The values being preached by Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are those of the Ancient Nord warlords and kings from BEFORE Tiber Septim's reign, from before the Empire. That doesn't make those values wrong...it just means that Skyrim as it is in the 4th Era is an Imperial Skyrim, and runs according to Imperial laws and governance. It still holds Nord cultural values, but it IS an imperial state.


Now this leads to another issue. The Empire that everyone swore allegiances to was the Septim one....not the Mede dynasty. BUT none of the nations bolted AFTER Titus Mede I took power, so warlord or not, there must be something to this notion of an empire. Really a better time for the North to quit the Empire would have been during the Interregum, since they could have claimed to refuse to honor a "new dynasty".

Edited April 8, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[Sianama]

I think that Skyrim standards are at least not entirely imperial standards. Skyrim is run by its own government that enforces its own laws (or Jarls' wills, which is the same^^). Even Falk Firebeard, who is quite clearly a supporter of the Empire, says that in Skyrim they still uphold the old traditions and ways of their forefathers. Which is probably why the whole 'duel to the death-thing' was possible at all. It sure had not been done that way for a long time, but it was not against Skyrim law. And _before_ the duel it also does not seem to have been against imperial law or they would have said no.

I guess Skyrim did adapt to imperial ways, they sure were more comfortable and made life a lot easier for most people. Some adapted to it more, some less, but all in all, they were being left alone, only the money came in faster and who can say no to conveniences, if everything is allright? And I think that was still true, when the Mede dynasty took over. Why should they have rebelled? I'm sure they were not too pleased, but for them nothing really changed, so why would they bother doing anything against it? And I'm sure High King and Jarls got their fair share for saying nothing (just like with the White-Gold-Concordat, which Proventus mentions).

But imagine for a people like the Nords, where some (not all, but some) still think that it's glorious to die on the battlefield and that you should rather die than bend your knee to some 'outsider', especially if that outsider is an elf (still the old Lorkhan-business in a way >.<), the signing of the Concordat was sure already a reason for war against the Empire (or Ulfric would not have had men to march against the Forsworn with him). And from then on everything escalated more and more and the voices of those who didn't want to change too much but rather remain 'real Nords' and stick to their ways got louder. We know the rest. But I think that is all because Skyrim wasn't that much adapted to imperial ways, only accustomed to the benefits. But when the disadvantages outweigh the benefits, it's quite natural some people won't put up with it.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Yeah but by rebelling they are not only endangering themselves but also ALL those people who didn't want to rebel.

[Sianama]

Yeah but by rebelling they are not only endangering themselves but also ALL those people who didn't want to rebel.

That is surely true. That is always true for a rebellion, in this case it's even more dangerous, because there's really two enemies then.

But as it usually is, for the rebels their cause is important enough to take that chance. We, in hindsight, know ofc that it doesn't matter who wins, because you as player can choose both sides, so i can't really matter for what is to come. But the rebels don't know that. They think, that if they don't do anything, Skyrim is doomed, some even think the world will be doomed if Skyrim doesn't come to its 'old strength and values'. They are sure, that it will be Skyrim, that saves the world from the Thalmor, because the Empire is too weak to do that.

And they are furious. I guess most people agree at least on this point, that they understand why people get furious, when some strange government suddenly comes and tells them, they cannot rule themselves anymore and they have to put up with people dragging their children/wives/husbands/brothers/sisters/neighbors/whatevers away. And furious people tend to be rebellious people. And irrational people. Could the rebellion have been prevented? Probably, but it would have taken a lot of care and a lot of awareness to do that. If you're already on the brink of a rebellion, the most stupid thing you can do is to put more pressure into the system. But someone (I'm nor even sure if that was really the Emperor himself) decided, that this would be the right way to go. And that gave the rebellious voices even more strength.

I think that, the way things were, at some point in the past, the rebellion was almost inevitable. Not in hindsight, but surely from the pov then and there, when it started.

[RighthandofSithis]

Excellent points, Anska, about motivations after entering Sovengarde and so on.

 

@RighthandofSithis: If you mean the Stormcloak supporters, we're still here. HighKingUlfricStormcloak left because he's gonna be a father and has to prepare to train a little Stormcloak, he may jump in when he has the time. I don't know about Lithium Flower, probably in the same boat as me with stuff getting in the way of fun.

 

I'm quite less active this week and the next one because of work overload. I have a huge exam coming, some personal issues and my thesis that is still simply a skeleton of what it should be at this point. I check the forums every once in a while since I work mostly on my pc (and Gods bless amusing distractions), but answering requires way more engagement than I can provide at the moment. By next weekend I'll be spamming my precious thoughts all over the forums again. I'm sure everyone is holding their breaths in anticipation - so make your offerings to the Gods for my success. :biggrin:

 

 

 

I'll start by apologising to Sithis17.

 

I suppose I should expalin my own recent absence. I had the Marxism 2013 conference in Melbourne (which was epic), and then went back to my hometown to celebrate a mates 18th. Somehow, I managed to get one assignment done between all this, but I still have 2 more due next week. So i'f I'm not on, then that would be why.

 

I also wish HKUS well, great news, my friend, great news.

 

And finally, I agree. It is much more interesting with a balence of Stormcloaks and Imperials. if only we still had Lithium's collection of arguements for either side, we could contribute to it.

[Anska]

Quote

My issue with this argument is that "Imperial standards" ARE Skyrim's standards. Skyrim is part of the Empire...and it has been since there was an Empire to be part of. I've seen it mentioned over and over that "the High Kings were Imperial puppets" but in reality, Skyrim ISN'T a sovereign nation or an autonomous state that just being buddy buddy with or controlled by the Empire, it IS the Empire. Everyone in Skyrim is an Imperial citizen. It's the difference in relations between the US & the UK vs the US & Hawaii. Hawaii may be further from the center of government and have different cultural values and history...but its still affected by decisions made in DC. It's the same thing here.

 

The values being preached by Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are those of the Ancient Nord warlords and kings from BEFORE Tiber Septim's reign, from before the Empire. That doesn't make those values wrong...it just means that Skyrim as it is in the 4th Era is an Imperial Skyrim, and runs according to Imperial laws and governance. It still holds Nord cultural values, but it IS an imperial state.

 

I can't argue most of what you wrote in the first paragraph. Skyrim has been part of the Empire for a long time and so of course its culture has adapted to being part of a larger whole and developed itself. Probably the current more traditional Nord culture is a far cry from what it had been during Ysgramor's time too. However, I don't agree to call the .... well, "Culture more inclined to a holistic Empire", for the lack of a better term, Post-United Empire Nord Culture as opposed to a Pre-United Nord Culture either, as you suggested. This would imply that the Stormcloaks are trying to revive some long lost traditions from the brink of time and, as Sianama and Sisterof have already pointed out, this is not the way it is. The more traditional way of living and thinking still plays a part in the lives of many Nords. It seems to me that the people of Skyrim take their individual position between two opposing sets of standards, which are represented by Solitude on the one side and Windhelm on the other. I can understand why you don't like me to call the former "Imperial standards" but I am at a loss for better terms. Cyrodil-centric versus Skyrim-centric perhaps? Global versus local?

 

Secondly, I am not sure how Washington is regarding Hawaii, but for me - if you are looking for real-life comparison to the situation between Cyrodil and Skyrim - the comparison between Rome and its provinces is way more apparent. (And that's stepping into dangerous territory for me, because I have to admit, that my knowledge of Roman history is somewhat patchy.) Many of Skyrim's people are part of the Imperial Legion, the Empire relies on Skyrim's manpower and it is implied other resources (e.g. the silver from the Reach) as well. Yet the Empire (or the Emperor?) doesn't show any respect for the parts of Skyrim's culture that aren't oriented towards the good of the Empire as a whole. It sees the Nords only as quarrelsome barbarians who need to be patronized. That is, if Tullius's words about why the Legion is in Skyrim are any indication of the Empire's opinion of Skyrim.

 

I know that this comparison is somewhat lacking because, as was already pointed out, Skyrim isn't some province that was at some time in the past sacked by the Empire, but is actually the birthplace of the Empire. However, the power-center of the Empire has shifted since and at the moment, Skyrim is nothing but a province of an Empire based in Cyrodil (again referring to Tullius's words), which seems to have different cultural standards from its provinces - or at least from Skyrim. So, to get back to the start, it might be debatable if the Stormcloaks don't have a point in arguing, that the more Empire-oriented standards, which are most strongly supported by the court and population of Solitude, weren't caused by an outside influence that is corrupting the values which are important to many Nords.

 

 

Concerning the point of endangering everyone, as Sianama pointed out, all rebelions are. The questions that remains in the end is, whether they were worth the sacrifice. Unfortunately, this is a question that can only be answered in retrospective and - what is even more unfortunate - no matter what, it doesn't spare or restore the lives of the people who never wanted to have anything to do with it in the first place.

 

 

Edit: I agree that, the Stormcloak argument is very selfish, because it only has the interests of Skyrim and its people in mind. It's a bit like saying: I only want to be part of your club if I'm either the boss or the second in command. So the Dunmer in Skyrim complain that they are being ill treated by the Nords, the Nords are complaining that they are being ill treated by the Empire, while the Empire/Cyrodil is complaining that in its time of need its provinces are letting it down. They all want the best for themselves in the end. True, as the saying goes, it's the rats who leave the sinking ship first - but then again, can you really blame them for not wanting to drown?

Edited April 9, 2013 by Anska