Imperial VS Stormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

also, are Ulfric's motives really Ulfric's?

everything he has done since his capture in the Great War has been to the benefit of the Thalmor.

how much of his interrogation was brainwashing?

 

I'd go so far as to say that Ulfric is a tragic figure in all this and even if he was to suspect that he has been acting for the benefit of his Thalmor enemies, he has gone so far that he can't back down.

 

the cause may be right but the methods used are most certainly not

[Anska]

I don't really have that much time to reply right now, so I am just checking if I understood you correctly, SlayerKnight. You basically say, you dislike Ulfric because he doesn't act according to the law and think he is mainly motivated by revenge. Did I understand that right? I didn't quite get on whom and for what - revenge on Torygg for being a poor king? Apart from that, I didn't quite catch the reason why you think Ulfric wants to become High King. Just to be High King?

You said, "If at least half of Nords supported Ulfric, he'd be happy to call the Moot." This sounds to me, as if you argued, that the desires of the people of Skyrim had an influence on the Moot's decision about the High King. So that is where the democracy came from. Apart from this there is a line that left me baffled. You mentioned "you can call me what you will". Did I ever stoop to name-calling or personal insults? I am really confused about this line.

Edit: And before I forget it: Thank you for your answer. I'd also be happy to read other opinions on the topic.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Anska

[Moody]

Having spent more time looking at the Stormcloak position and Ulfric I think my initial distrust for him was slightly misplaced.

 

I don't think he is seeking the High Kings position purely out of power lust - its out of pure hatred of the Thalmor.

 

Ulfric wants to flight the Thalmor in an active manor - to do this he needs the support of a nation and an army (not a militia which is what the Stormcloaks currently are).

 

As far as he is concerned the Empire doesn't have the "stomach" to stand against the Elves and thus the civil war and all his actions are a means to an end - to turn Skyrim into a solid base for the war he wants to start - he does care for Skyrim and its people but those cares are superseded by his wanton hate of the Elves - this is why he is so "torn" up if you meet him in Sovngarde as he realizes his hate led him to hurting the people he loved.

 

As to the method in which he killed Torygg - it was a double barreled message.

 

Firstly he was tapping into a long held Nord tradition, for those who don't know the Lore, General Talos was recognized by the Nords as the "Dragon of the North" after he used the voice to fight a Nord / Breton alliance which was invading the fledgling Empire - the Nords were so taken by his use of the voice they swapped sides - Ulfric is trying to tap into that since tradition is a major recruiting tool for the Stormcloaks.

 

Secondly it sends a message to the remaining Yarls - stand against me and I will destroy you utterly with a power you cannot even comprehend.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

Secondly it sends a message to the remaining Yarls - stand against me and I will destroy you utterly with a power you cannot even comprehend.

Oh ok, that's fine. I obstruct. What is right can not be determined by strength or "abuse" of power. The Nords also lost a great battle because they started using the voice solely for murder and violence. This is another reason I'm with Balstein, it doesn't matter how powerful you are ~ This hold is free, neutral and we don't agree with you.

 

I'm for change, ok? I want to see the Empire change for the better and I want to see Skyrim changed for the better. Emperor Mede and Ulfric can be crafted into heros or villains, ultimately whatever we shape them as, they are the reason why we're here today. No good will come from anything these two set out to do. I'm for getting rid of both these guys and lets give the Empire a chance on it's own. I think that's best because regardless of the situation, going far left and far right is not going to get us where we need to be, the truth is usually found in the middle ground. An honest man will walk the middle ground.

Firstly, by that argument, the Player should not use the voice at all after defeating Alduin.

 

However, the main thing I wanted to get onto was that the Empire is far past the point of no return. Point number 5 here pretty much sums up my approach: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1

 

Thus, with the Empire's opportunities looking bleak, independence would seem to be the best option, rather than being dragged down with the Empire, or just as bad, being subjugated into what will become a complete Thalmori puppet government.

Edited April 12, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[MightyZ0G]

 

 

 

Secondly it sends a message to the remaining Yarls - stand against me and I will destroy you utterly with a power you cannot even comprehend.

Oh ok, that's fine. I obstruct. What is right can not be determined by strength or "abuse" of power. The Nords also lost a great battle because they started using the voice solely for murder and violence. This is another reason I'm with Balstein, it doesn't matter how powerful you are ~ This hold is free, neutral and we don't agree with you.

 

I'm for change, ok? I want to see the Empire change for the better and I want to see Skyrim changed for the better. Emperor Mede and Ulfric can be crafted into heros or villains, ultimately whatever we shape them as, they are the reason why we're here today. No good will come from anything these two set out to do. I'm for getting rid of both these guys and lets give the Empire a chance on it's own. I think that's best because regardless of the situation, going far left and far right is not going to get us where we need to be, the truth is usually found in the middle ground. An honest man will walk the middle ground.

Firstly, by that argument, the Player should not use the voice at all after defeating Alduin.

 

However, the main thing I wanted to get onto was that the Empire is far past the point of no return. Point number 5 here pretty much sums up my approach: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1

 

Thus, with the Empire's opportunities looking bleak, independence would seem to be the best option, rather than being dragged down with the Empire, or just as bad, being subjugated into what will become a complete Thalmori puppet government.

 

fisrt of all, the player is Dragonborn and therefore any use he makes of the Thu'um is right and just because the Dragonborn only shows up in times of True Need.

Ulfric learnt The Way Of The Voice from the Greybeards and under their rules for teaching it, it must only be used to praise the Gods.

 

secondly, how can anyone take that document seriously when it states that "The Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion in Skyrim" when the Thalmor only had an excuse to enter Skyrim because Ulfric made a huge deal about getting back the right to worship Talos again after the Markarth Incident?

I wouldn't be surprised if somehow it was directly through Ulfric that the Thalmor found out and demanded their right under the WGC to enforce the ban on Talos worship (that was happily being ignored until Ulfric caught the Thalmor's attention)

[Anska]

That document is part of a two part series, listing points for and against the Stormcloaks/ Empire. I think the style is deliberately slightly provoking because it reflects the accusations of one side against the other. If you look a bit in the history of this thread, you'll find its Empire-counterpart too. I am quite sure it will be much more to your liking.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

Secondly it sends a message to the remaining Yarls - stand against me and I will destroy you utterly with a power you cannot even comprehend.

Oh ok, that's fine. I obstruct. What is right can not be determined by strength or "abuse" of power. The Nords also lost a great battle because they started using the voice solely for murder and violence. This is another reason I'm with Balstein, it doesn't matter how powerful you are ~ This hold is free, neutral and we don't agree with you.

 

I'm for change, ok? I want to see the Empire change for the better and I want to see Skyrim changed for the better. Emperor Mede and Ulfric can be crafted into heros or villains, ultimately whatever we shape them as, they are the reason why we're here today. No good will come from anything these two set out to do. I'm for getting rid of both these guys and lets give the Empire a chance on it's own. I think that's best because regardless of the situation, going far left and far right is not going to get us where we need to be, the truth is usually found in the middle ground. An honest man will walk the middle ground.

Firstly, by that argument, the Player should not use the voice at all after defeating Alduin.

 

However, the main thing I wanted to get onto was that the Empire is far past the point of no return. Point number 5 here pretty much sums up my approach: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1

 

Thus, with the Empire's opportunities looking bleak, independence would seem to be the best option, rather than being dragged down with the Empire, or just as bad, being subjugated into what will become a complete Thalmori puppet government.

 

fisrt of all, the player is Dragonborn and therefore any use he makes of the Thu'um is right and just because the Dragonborn only shows up in times of True Need.

Ulfric learnt The Way Of The Voice from the Greybeards and under their rules for teaching it, it must only be used to praise the Gods.

 

secondly, how can anyone take that document seriously when it states that "The Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion in Skyrim" when the Thalmor only had an excuse to enter Skyrim because Ulfric made a huge deal about getting back the right to worship Talos again after the Markarth Incident?

I wouldn't be surprised if somehow it was directly through Ulfric that the Thalmor found out and demanded their right under the WGC to enforce the ban on Talos worship (that was happily being ignored until Ulfric caught the Thalmor's attention)

 

As Anska stated, it is a collection WE made of Stormcloak arguements. Similarly, WE also made a collection of Imperial Arguements: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d9rsnQz6IH0rbS-BdIIolgZ0DbwYzxTE3VrfslLpHNU/edit?pli=1

[MightyZ0G]

I know what it is, I just can't take it seriously when the first point is so wrong.

 

if I could be bothered I could write a huge document to support the Empire and then just put a link to it every time someone posted something I disagreed with, but who would really bother reading it when those who have any interest have read it here on the forum in my, and others', posts?

just writing it all somewhere else doesn't alter the veracity of the claims made in such a document.

[TheLoreSeeker]

I have always been in support of Lithium's documents....but no one can deny that the Imperial one is written a lot worse than the Stormcloak one.

[RighthandofSithis]

Firstly, the Document was written based of Imperial arguements (or was even by Imperials). We Decided to keep them both together as a means of trying to keep track of the argument, and not having to repeat ourselves every time a new person enters the debate (that issue applies to both sides).

 

Similarly, Zog, if you can get in contact with Lithium Flower (or anyone else who knows how to edit those documents), We would all like your contributions to it, the whole point of making these was to publish both views so they were easily accessible for new debatee's.

Now, onto the issue of the Empire.

 

One may consider it honorable to try and save the empire, similarly, one may argue it honorable to abandon it. the Issue isn't whether its an honourable course or not, but is it possible to save the Empire. As the Stormlcoak document states, when Empires fall into this spiral of collapse, they rarely come out. And the Empire doesn't have the luxury of being able to waste its resources crushing rebellions and gang wars, while trying to rebuild (still, evidently) from the Great War without weakening its position. At least an independant Skyrim would be able to offer some resistance at the very least, at best, it would be just as, if not more, effective as the Empire, and much more stable.