Imperial VS Stormcloak

[tnu]

@tnu

 

I never said I supported Ulfric and his oppressive regime now did I?

 

True. Truth is usually found on the middle ground and you appear to be an enlightened individual. Alright then, well... I have been working my arse off all weekend doing things around the house and now, I'm going to go out and try to live a little before going back to hell tomorrow. You guys have a good one!

 

>

Yeah....it gets a bit... "heated"....and the guys posting now are relatively small fish (with perhaps the exception of Kayyyleb) in the long-standing feud pond compared to some of the other debate sharks who aren't here right now.

 

Oh and one more thing. It appears that this is a Stormcloak friendly forum. This is a place where they can get their point out and people can understand the Stormcloaks and what they're about. Seriously. Here, it's like we're all little fish and even though I'm down with the Empire, I do respect the Stormcloaks and there is some good they accomplish. By restoring Talos worship, they do something the Empire so far has been unable to accomplish. Ulfric does serve as a uniting force in Skyrim, like Anska had said earlier. Ulfric, while a bit of a cowardly lion, will stand and fight at the end of the day, even if he sends his army instead of himself, :smile: I guess that's better than doing nothing at all, which of course when you're in such a desperate situation, doing something is better than doing nothing at all. The Stormcloaks fight for their lives, homes and each other, although if they win, Skryim's gonna have some social problems, but the Nords are in the majority and Elves started the war, so in a way I can understand their feelings. Jarl Baalgruff though ~ I'm still down with that cat. He allows freedom of speech and open Talos worship and he's more interested in stopping the Dragons than the Civil War. I cannot abide anyone attacking Whiterun in the name of "liberty". That's crazy and you know it.

 

If Whiterun doesn't want to be "ruled" by either side, that's their business. This is also where I diverge from the Stormcloaks and become an Imperial. No one, not one "liberator" looking for freedom would open his intro scene with:

 

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."

Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"

Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."

Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."

Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"

Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"

Ulfric: "Soon."

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."

Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

Galmar: "We're ready when you are."

Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."

 

That's an excerpt from the entire dialogue, there's no reason what so ever to attack Whiterun other than to force people into your way of thinking. Diplomacy wasn't even an option on the table, they're just ready to go. So no, I could go on and on and on and on, but threatening your neighbors who are living in an free, autonomous state just because they're not "free" under your rule, is Tyranny and is no better than being subjugated by the Dominion. Had Ulfric been more reasonable and actually "respected" another ruler in Skyrim, as two free "peoples", than I'd be a Stormcloak today. He didn't, he's not capable of respecting anyone else who will not fall down and go bowing before his majesty and I have no more time to discuss this.

 

"For the Glory of the Empire!" :biggrin:

 

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ulfric_Stormcloak

 

 

 

Compromise!? Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both. One does not compromise with a regime that wants to take away your freedom.

 

that argument works well for both sides.

 

do you want the local flavour of dictatorship or the national flavour?

 

also, the Stormcloaks didn't restore Talos worship in Skyrim.

Nords all over Skyrim were happily worshipping Talos privately and ignoring the terms of the WGC. it is only when Ulfric makes a big fuss about it, attracts the attention of the Thalmor (I still think he was brainwashed to do this) and gets arrested that the Thalmor have the excuse they've been looking for to go into Skyrim and enforce the ban on Talos.

 

These points are what make the civil war tricky for me. I am simply not one who is content with a freedom to choose one oppressive regime or another. at a first glance the Stormcloaks seamed less oppressive but form a purely gameplay perspective the Empire had the more interesting choice of Jarls. if I'm right you can kill Ulfric after a Stormcloak victory and create a power vacume at the top just as you can kill Titus Mede to attain the same result.

[Kayyyleb]

if I'm right you can kill Ulfric after a Stormcloak victory and create a power vacume at the top just as you can kill Titus Mede to attain the same result.

I did not know this. I thought Ulfric was always tagged essential except at the end of the Legion questline?

[RighthandofSithis]

When discussing Ulfric as a dictator, it is necessary to consider the issue in context.

TES is set in a semi-feudal society, ruled entirely by local aristocratic elites. Furthermore, lacking Enlightenment ideology, or, more importantly, large scale industry, the Tamriellic bourgeoisie have no hope of challenging the feudal order, and we cirtainly lack any significant proletariat (perhaps in riften and Markarth?).

 

tnu would argue that the peasantry would be able to create a classless society in their own right, but I'd counter that by saying they are too disorganized and loosely connected to propose anything more than Land reforms (yes, I'm a Marxist, tnu, best we keep to our own).

[Kayyyleb]

When discussing Ulfric as a dictator, it is necessary to consider the issue in context.

 

TES is set in a semi-feudal society, ruled entirely by local aristocratic elites. Furthermore, lacking Enlightenment ideology, or, more importantly, large scale industry, the Tamriellic bourgeoisie have no hope of challenging the feudal order, and we cirtainly lack any significant proletariat (perhaps in riften and Markarth?).

 

tnu would argue that the peasantry would be able to create a classless society in their own right, but I'd counter that by saying they are too disorganized and loosely connected to propose anything more than Land reforms (yes, I'm a Marxist, tnu, best we keep to our own).

Classless society is unfortunately essentially impossible at least in any permanent state. There will always be those with more power, money, resources and influence than others and they will find ways to create an oligarchy.

 

In the case of TES, a democratic government (the one most favoring the bourgeoisie) just isn't going to happen so we're stuck with trying to get the most benevolent form of oligarchy we can. I am convinced that the Empire is this oligarchy because based on it's history the Empire has generally been a decent system despite it's many flaws. For centuries the majority of Tamriel was content under Imperial rule. The two new factions are very polarized and despite the extreme hate between them are nearly identical in many ways. Both favor a single demographic (Altmer/Nords), both are highly intolerant of opposing viewpoints and both are led by power hungry dictatorial systems. This is why I consider the Empire to be the lesser of the three evils.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[tnu]

actually i'm not a marxist. I'm an individualist anarchist. This doesn't preclude marxism mind you it jsut doesn't necessitate it. many forms of voluntary orginization could exist under it including a marist community. so long as all particpents are willing and fully consensual.

Edited April 14, 2013 by tnu

[Anska]

Zog, about the brainwashing-topic: I think when they captured Ulfric during the Great War, the Thalmor didn't only find out, that he was from a highly influential background, but also was a very idealistic young man with a short fuse. So they took their time and made him really hate them, the finishing touch being the bad conscience about the fall of the Imperial City. Afterwards they allowed him to escape, in the safe knowledge he was prone to do something rash or downright stupid in the future. The bit about the Imperial City is especially nasty, because it probably sent Ulfric on a major guilt-trip because of the sacked city and made him very much ashamed of himself for giving in - all the more reason for hating the Thalmor and wanting to fight them in a more active manner. I am not so sure Ulfric ever found out that it actually wasn't his fault afterall. So, if that's what you mean by "brainwashing", I agree with you.

 

The Markarth incident is a bit odd, firstly because it's the only part the dossier is vague about while the rest is rather strait-forward, secondly because it never sounded like a very good idea in the first place. Personally my guess is, that the Thalmor had a spy/ collaborator, who is still active, tweak a few things in their favor, so that Ulfric and whoever his co-contractor was (I have never really understood whom he made the deal with, Igmund's father or the Empire) didn't know the trap until their feet were in it.

[tnu]

Where is the Empire oprating out of these days?I wouldn't mind seeing Northern or Central Cyrodiil in a DLC myself

[TheLoreSeeker]

Still the Imperial City...I'm pretty sure.

[Anska]

 

 

if I'm right you can kill Ulfric after a Stormcloak victory and create a power vacume at the top just as you can kill Titus Mede to attain the same result.

I did not know this. I thought Ulfric was always tagged essential except at the end of the Legion questline?

He still is essential - I admittedly tried just this once. :blush:

 

Honestly though, I think killing Ulfric after helping the Stormcloaks, is about the worst thing that could happen to Skyrim right now. Simply because he is the only person involved in the rebellion, who is interested in uniting all of Skyrim into a stable, independent country. Everyone else seems to be just interested in a small aspect of the rebellion, be it religion (Jarl Leila), the prosperity of their personal Hold (Thongvor, the Winterhold Jarl and Dengeir and Vignar if you don't put them in the following category), the prestigious position (Skald) or simply bashing in the heads of the Imperials or Thalmor (most of the Stormcloaks and Galmar). If Ulfric dies after the rebellion succeeds, you have a land in need of restructure but nobody really interested in doing so. The same goes for the Empire. That's just too much of a power-vacuum with the Thalmor on the doorstep.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Anska

[RighthandofSithis]

actually i'm not a marxist. I'm an individualist anarchist. This doesn't preclude marxism mind you it jsut doesn't necessitate it. many forms of voluntary orginization could exist under it including a marist community. so long as all particpents are willing and fully consensual.

I said you weren't, and was explaining that we could come into conflict (basing that off a few discussions with anarchists at the Marxism Conference).