Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

And, as I have pointed out numerous times, the only winning move is not to play.

Remember that the only thing that will absolutely play on every single Thalmor wish is letting the war drag on.

Not really. Either way the Thalmor got what they want, which is weakening the Empire. Skyrim was part of the Empiric Provinces of Tamriel. With the Civil War, they ceded from it, thus weakening the Empire and weakening Skyrim. If they wanted to invade, they could, and the Imperials couldn't even help them even if they wanted to considering what's inside the White-Gold Concordat.

 

Indeed, the Thalmor's goal to weaken the empire seems to have been fulfilled, whether they instigated it or not.

 

The Thalmor are but a catalyist of Imperial collapse. The Empire had been in a state of steady decline for 200 years, but since the Great War, and the rise of the Dominion as a great power, the Empire has begun to decline at a much faster rate.

[pheo3309]

 

 

 

And, as I have pointed out numerous times, the only winning move is not to play.

Remember that the only thing that will absolutely play on every single Thalmor wish is letting the war drag on.

Not really. Either way the Thalmor got what they want, which is weakening the Empire. Skyrim was part of the Empiric Provinces of Tamriel. With the Civil War, they ceded from it, thus weakening the Empire and weakening Skyrim. If they wanted to invade, they could, and the Imperials couldn't even help them even if they wanted to considering what's inside the White-Gold Concordat.

 

Indeed, the Thalmor's goal to weaken the empire seems to have been fulfilled, whether they instigated it or not.

 

The Thalmor are but a catalyist of Imperial collapse. The Empire had been in a state of steady decline for 200 years, but since the Great War, and the rise of the Dominion as a great power, the Empire has begun to decline at a much faster rate.

THIS! OMG THIS! Thank you for wording it much easier than I can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And, as I have pointed out numerous times, the only winning move is not to play.

Remember that the only thing that will absolutely play on every single Thalmor wish is letting the war drag on.

Not really. Either way the Thalmor got what they want, which is weakening the Empire. Skyrim was part of the Empiric Provinces of Tamriel. With the Civil War, they ceded from it, thus weakening the Empire and weakening Skyrim. If they wanted to invade, they could, and the Imperials couldn't even help them even if they wanted to considering what's inside the White-Gold Concordat.

So what it really boils down to is that the Thalmor have already got what they want before the game ever starts, and your choice is entirely whether and how you want to dance about in the aftermath.

Sort of. When the Civil War breaks out, either way, everyone loses except the Thalmor. The Imperials wanted to end the Great War. They signed the Concordat. Hammerfell rejected that same treaty, ceding from the Empire. While that happened Thalmor forces declared war on Hammerfell. Titus II readded Hammerfell back to the Empire, however the Redguards didn't like that move at all and seen it all like they were betrayed by the Empire. They think that the Imperials are 'sown to delight' the Thalmor, even though they signed the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai due to their war with the Thalmor. These treaties and Concordats aren't your normal treaties. If it's the Thalmor, they want to rule over anyone non-Mer descent, so these contracts are rules and regulations that the provinces of the Empire has to follow.

 

Now putting all that into the perspective, both of these treaties having those rules and regulations CRIPPLE what those Provinces can do. In fact, it's more of how the Thalmor can control them. The Imperials wouldn't have even enforced the ban of Talos worship if it wasn't for the Thalmor pressuring them to do so, not to mention the Imperials have been trying to avoid future conflicts due to the Great War. So speculatively, they have lost the two strongest allies. Hammerfell with all that tension and now Skyrim because the Thalmor told them to enforce the Concordat. If the Thalmor wanted, they could possibly overtake Skyrim because of it's weakened state. Civil War cripples politics. You have people who are still loyal to the Empire. You have people that aren't. Just because one side wins doesn't make it fully over and the only ones getting anything beneficial is the Thalmor for stirring the politics up where the Empiric Provinces are fighting with each other. The Thalmor doesn't lose anything while the other provinces are weakened to the point where if the Thalmor really wanted to, they could overthrow the government that the Empire has established. I think the Civil War wasn't finished. I think the battle for Skyrim has, but the Civil War isn't just with Skyrim as it's not a Province Civil War. Imperials aren't native to Skyrim. This is a Civil War of the Empire. Which changes the whole perspective for me of the whole Imperial/Stormcloak debate. Hopefully that makes sense because there's literally so much information in my head that it's overflowing out my ears. D:

[sisterof]

Indeed, the Thalmor's goal to weaken the empire seems to have been fulfilled, whether they instigated it or not.

 

The Thalmor are but a catalyist of Imperial collapse. The Empire had been in a state of steady decline for 200 years, but since the Great War, and the rise of the Dominion as a great power, the Empire has begun to decline at a much faster rate.

Quite agreed.

What I keep thinking is that we don't have any good choice either. We've been debating for these 151 pages the pros and cons of Stormcloaks or Imperials. This thread has made me pick a side after a long while avoiding the Civil War altogether - because I do agree that picking any side means losing something very important. But at the same time, letting the war drag on and more soldiers die isn't a valid way out either. We're effed up big time regardless of choosing one side, the other, or inaction. :confused:

[Mopel]

Referring to a post that I can't find anymore, someone stated that in a all out battle the Dominion would easily defeat the Nords due to their magical capabilities, specifically referring to fire. The person stated that you could simply throw oil on a tight formation of stormcloaks and lit the flame which would make for a easily won battle. I believe this is false, first of all you can't get that much oil on an entire army, BUT my main point is that the magical version of fire differs from natural fire...

U see, gameplay wise, it seems that fire spells can't continue to burn unless the user keeps casting the spells. As in, it is not powered by oxygen in the air, but by the casters magica. The fire also seems weaker than natural flames, which would obviously incinerate you in seconds in the way it is blasted over people like flamethrowers. But, the fire does cause minor burns and thus damage. But, referring back to this magic form of fire being fueled by the caster, oil would most likely not spread it so easily as such.

This is just a theory, could just be a gameplay mechanic, but it could be something very real to fire spells.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Mopel

[MightyZ0G]

mopel, have you ever used a flame spell on the oil lamps in dungeons or on the oil that is often spread across the floor?

 

fire spells may need magica to keep them going but they do a fantastic job of lighting up oil and anything in that oil usually gets burnt up

[TheLoreSeeker]

 

The Empire has had problems along, sure. Potema, Oblivion Hell, Pelagius the Mad, Warp in the West, Fight for Mehrunes Dagger etc, etc, etc... Every time the Empire has made it thru. Therefore, there is no definitive argument anyone can give to guarantee that The Empire will fall completely. Impossible. Go ahead and keep saying that. The Empire has always sorted it's sh*t out in the end.

 

You know that the opposing argument is going to be "that's because the Septim family was a divinely blessed lineage" right? And that now that the dynasty has changed that the rules no longer apply.

Edited April 21, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[Kayyyleb]

 

Referring to a post that I can't find anymore, someone stated that in a all out battle the Dominion would easily defeat the Nords due to their magical capabilities, specifically referring to fire. The person stated that you could simply throw oil on a tight formation of stormcloaks and lit the flame which would make for a easily won battle. I believe this is false, first of all you can't get that much oil on an entire army, BUT my main point is that the magical version of fire differs from natural fire...

U see, gameplay wise, it seems that fire spells can't continue to burn unless the user keeps casting the spells. As in, it is not powered by oxygen in the air, but by the casters magica. The fire also seems weaker than natural flames, which would obviously incinerate you in seconds in the way it is blasted over people like flamethrowers. But, the fire does cause minor burns and thus damage. But, referring back to this magic form of fire being fueled by the caster, oil would most likely not spread it so easily as such.

This is just a theory, could just be a gameplay mechanic, but it could be something very real to fire spells.

That person was me.

 

You would be correct in a situation on an open battlefield but the context of my post referred to a choke point like mountain ranges which was the hot topic at the time. Significantly less oil is needed to cover a choke point in fire than an entire battlefield. Also, the whole point of the oil is because I realize destruction magic is dependent on the users' magicka but oil is not. The magic is only needed to start the fire, and even at that you could easily shoot a few burning arrows for the same effect. The point of the oil is not to engulf the entire field but to simply catch clothing on fire or roast troops inside their steel armor.

 

I'm also quite convinced the weakness of fire ingame is purely gameplay balance. Destruction magic in realistic applications would be extremely overpowered. Chained lignting for example could electrocute entire formations of tightly grouped troops in steel armor.

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

The Empire has had problems along, sure. Potema, Oblivion Hell, Pelagius the Mad, Warp in the West, Fight for Mehrunes Dagger etc, etc, etc... Every time the Empire has made it thru. Therefore, there is no definitive argument anyone can give to guarantee that The Empire will fall completely. Impossible. Go ahead and keep saying that. The Empire has always sorted it's sh*t out in the end.

 

You know that the opposing argument is going to be "that's because the Septim family was a divinely blessed lineage" right? And that now that the dynasty has changed that the rules no longer apply.

That argument would be wrong then. The Septims were not given any special abilities above normal people. The only blessing they received was that Oblivion would be separated from Tamriel as long as their line was in control of the Empire. How long they remained in power was up to them.

[sisterof]

 

 

 

The Empire has had problems along, sure. Potema, Oblivion Hell, Pelagius the Mad, Warp in the West, Fight for Mehrunes Dagger etc, etc, etc... Every time the Empire has made it thru. Therefore, there is no definitive argument anyone can give to guarantee that The Empire will fall completely. Impossible. Go ahead and keep saying that. The Empire has always sorted it's sh*t out in the end.

 

You know that the opposing argument is going to be "that's because the Septim family was a divinely blessed lineage" right? And that now that the dynasty has changed that the rules no longer apply.

That argument would be wrong then. The Septims were not given any special abilities above normal people. The only blessing they received was that Oblivion would be separated from Tamriel as long as their line was in control of the Empire. How long they remained in power was up to them.

 

The Empire was blessed and had a divine reason to exist. I don't know why you require special powers - the fact that the Gods chose them to lead, and that their faithfulness would reflect in the well-being of the Empire is something that runs much deeper than battle power. Without a blessed lineage or an Emperor backed by the Divines, the Empire is simply a political institution with nothing on its side other than economy and diplomacy - two things it is failing at already. It's also interesting that the trials of St. Alessia mention that being blessed is not only about closing the Oblivion gates, but keeping the Empire powerful.

 

 

Here, found it. About the faithfulness of the Emperor reflecting on the Empire and the need for him to have a nice Divine sponsorship:

 

"So long as you and your heirs wear the Amulet of Kings, than shall this Dragonfire burn -an eternal flame- as a symbol to all men and gods of our faithfulness... But should these Dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness...." - Trials of St. Alessia.

 

 

[pheo3309]

 

Now putting all that into the perspective, both of these treaties having those rules and regulations CRIPPLE what those Provinces can do. In fact, it's more of how the Thalmor can control them. The Imperials wouldn't have even enforced the ban of Talos worship if it wasn't for the Thalmor pressuring them to do so, not to mention the Imperials have been trying to avoid future conflicts due to the Great War. So speculatively, they have lost the two strongest allies. Hammerfell with all that tension and now Skyrim because the Thalmor told them to enforce the Concordat. If the Thalmor wanted, they could possibly overtake Skyrim because of it's weakened state. Civil War cripples politics. You have people who are still loyal to the Empire. You have people that aren't. Just because one side wins doesn't make it fully over and the only ones getting anything beneficial is the Thalmor for stirring the politics up where the Empiric Provinces are fighting with each other. The Thalmor doesn't lose anything while the other provinces are weakened to the point where if the Thalmor really wanted to, they could overthrow the government that the Empire has established. I think the Civil War wasn't finished. I think the battle for Skyrim has, but the Civil War isn't just with Skyrim as it's not a Province Civil War. Imperials aren't native to Skyrim. This is a Civil War of the Empire. Which changes the whole perspective for me of the whole Imperial/Stormcloak debate. Hopefully that makes sense because there's literally so much information in my head that it's overflowing out my ears. D:

 

Well, I was happily *retired* until I saw this. I do not think you have a real understanding of the Empire's relationship with Skyrim or it's relationship with the other Provinces.

 

Entirely too many people will sit there and say something like, "Stormcloaks are rebelling against Imperial Ooooppression" or "The Empire is the Thalmor's puppet" or something else like "The Empire is occupying Skyrim". When people say statements like these, it's a red flag that there is no real understanding of how or why just talk about what.

 

Skyrim is not being occupied by the Empire, neither is there a massive Civil War going on within the Empire. There is a Civil War going on in Skyrim. Highrock is kool, Morrowind's a little bit pissed off at us but nothing that can't be undone. Not all of the houses are against the Empire, if any. So, if anything, all of the remaining Provinces share a common hatred for the Dominion, same as Cyrodil for various reasons.

 

Skyrim has always been a part of the Empire, in many ways, Skyrim is the Empire. I for one do not have a problem with Capitalistic or Imperial systems. That seems to be it, that's what everyone hates nowadays because "it's always someone's else's fault". If a nation does well enough for itself and other nations or Provinces jump on board or get themselves conquered, then you have an even stronger nation. This is what Talos wanted, this was his work and he conquered many nations, although many still joined him of their own accord. Stormcloaks make the point that Imperialism is wrong and unjust, yet the God they supposedly worship created the very institution that you guys seem to hate so much.

 

The Empire has had problems along, sure. Potema, Oblivion Hell, Pelagius the Mad, Warp in the West, Fight for Mehrunes Dagger etc, etc, etc... Every time the Empire has made it thru. Therefore, there is no definitive argument anyone can give to guarantee that The Empire will fall completely. Impossible. Go ahead and keep saying that. The Empire has always sorted it's sh*t out in the end.

If the Imperials aren't occupying Skyrim, then why are they enforcing the White-Gold Concordat? More importantly, why is there a rebellion against the Empire? I fail to see the logic in this whole statement as the canon backs the perspective I stated above. What you're talking about goes against the political events that have happened. It doesn't matter if they 'share' a hatred, which is a red flag that I can say about you not researching the concordat itself. It's a list of rules and regulations. It's dictated by canon that the Imperials were to enforce the ban on Talos worship, which regardless if the Empire didn't want to enforce it or not, they HAD to, else another Great War would erupt. But you're entitled to your opinion. I also didn't mention that the Empire would 'fall completely'. I said that the Thalmor are doing a great job at weakening them. There's a big difference my friend. The perspective lore above was taken from the canon. If you have links to what backs your statement up, I'd certainly love to read them.

Edited April 21, 2013 by pheo3309