Imperial VS Stormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

Unless you can prove the Empire is recovering, my comment stands.

 

From my analysis, the Empire has been declining for 200 years (with a brief patch-up with the rise of Titus mede I), but since the great war, has sunck at a much faster rate, a signal of things to come.

 

Dialectics, my friend, Dialectics (now that I've actually read what that means).

 

I can't prove that the Empire is or will recover, although everyone, including stormcloaks, seems pleased when the East Empire Company starts up again in Windhelm due to the increased trade and revenue it brings.

 

but you can't prove that the Empire won't recover.

 

you can say that a few towns are rife with criminal activity and gang wars or have been sacked by corsairs, but the details of those attacks also point towards the Dark Brotherhood as being the targets of the attacks (why else would someone make enemies of an assassin guild by destroying the sanctuaries?)

 

ALL the evidence is ambiguous, probably so that there is no right or wrong choice, but if it comes down to who has the best chance against the Thalmor, the answer is a united Empire rather than a bunch of independent provinces standing alone.

NATO would never has thought about going into Croatia, Serbia or Kossavo if they were still part of the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Unless you can prove the Empire is recovering, my comment stands.

 

From my analysis, the Empire has been declining for 200 years (with a brief patch-up with the rise of Titus mede I), but since the great war, has sunck at a much faster rate, a signal of things to come.

 

Dialectics, my friend, Dialectics (now that I've actually read what that means).

 

I can't prove that the Empire is or will recover, although everyone, including stormcloaks, seems pleased when the East Empire Company starts up again in Windhelm due to the increased trade and revenue it brings.

 

but you can't prove that the Empire won't recover.

 

you can say that a few towns are rife with criminal activity and gang wars or have been sacked by corsairs, but the details of those attacks also point towards the Dark Brotherhood as being the targets of the attacks (why else would someone make enemies of an assassin guild by destroying the sanctuaries?)

 

ALL the evidence is ambiguous, probably so that there is no right or wrong choice, but if it comes down to who has the best chance against the Thalmor, the answer is a united Empire rather than a bunch of independent provinces standing alone.

NATO would never has thought about going into Croatia, Serbia or Kossavo if they were still part of the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact.

 

No, the details of those attacks point to the entirety of Cyrodiil being the target. Take these excerpts from Cicero's journals:

 

The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers.

 

Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it.

 

Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs, and it's just a matter of time before the Sanctuary is breached.

 

And ultimately, his comments in person sum up the situation:

 

The Imperial province is ravaged by strife...

 

Reading between the lines, there is nothing to suggest that the DB is the only target of all these attacks. In fact, it seems it is a secondary target if anything. gag Wars and total Civil Strife aren't aimed at an impartial organisation of killers, they are directed against rival gangs (in the case of gang wars), or in case of riots (perhaps occuring in Cyrodiil, with Bruma being a strong possibility), they are directed against governmental authority (an expression of alienation and anger etc etc).

 

It would have been ridiculous to hire pirates to sack all of Wayrest just to get at the Brotherhood, something larger is going on there.

 

Nonetheless, this is why the Empire is unable to recover. When entire cities erupt into violence (be it gang related or radical), and two (out of three) provinces are gripped effectively by a civil war of sorts (the destruction of the DB is a testament to how devastating the situation is), it is impossible to recover. In fact, things get worse. Infrastructure is destroyed, soldiers are killed, etc etc.

 

And considering the violence in Cyrodiil has not ended (evidently by Cicero's comment) after 20 years, it suggests the EMpire is either unable, or unwilling (ie corrupt) to end the conflict.

[imperistan]

I wonder if those of us who've been participating in this topic since the beginning have realized that the Stormcloak supporters (and/or those who don't take either side) tend to stay relatively the same while the Imperial supporters tend to come and go?

 

I find it fascinating and makes me wonder. Did we convince them, or did they give up? Gives you a good idea of the conviction in both sides.

[RighthandofSithis]

I wonder if those of us who've been participating in this topic since the beginning have realized that the Stormcloak supporters (and/or those who don't take either side) tend to stay relatively the same while the Imperial supporters tend to come and go?

 

I find it fascinating and makes me wonder. Did we convince them, or did they give up? Gives you a good idea of the conviction in both sides.

 

I know HKUS has become a Father (apparently), so that has effected his commitment here (completely).

[MightyZ0G]

we are going round in circles

 

ultimately the Empire needs Skyrim but Skyrim needs the Empire.

 

without the Empire Skyrim lost the Reach.

will Skyrim lose more holds to the Forsworn if the Empire is kicked out?

yes, Ulfric regained the Reach but the Forsworn are still very active and have Reachmen operating within Markarth and the Reach in general.

 

without the Empire Skyrim is not strong enough to stop a Thalmor invasion and without Skyrim the Empire isn't strong enough to stop the Thalmor.

if man is to survive in Tamriel Skyrim has to stay in the Empire or both are lost

 

in the 1920s many cities in America were ravaged by the wars between various gangs but it wasn't the end for the United States.

[RighthandofSithis]

we are going round in circles

 

ultimately the Empire needs Skyrim but Skyrim needs the Empire.

 

without the Empire Skyrim lost the Reach.

will Skyrim lose more holds to the Forsworn if the Empire is kicked out?

yes, Ulfric regained the Reach but the Forsworn are still very active and have Reachmen operating within Markarth and the Reach in general.

 

without the Empire Skyrim is not strong enough to stop a Thalmor invasion and without Skyrim the Empire isn't strong enough to stop the Thalmor.

if man is to survive in Tamriel Skyrim has to stay in the Empire or both are lost

 

in the 1920s many cities in America were ravaged by the wars between various gangs but it wasn't the end for the United States.

 

Firstly, it was also Skyrim that regained the reach. And the Empire seems to be handling the situation in the Reach rather poorly (like, being almost completely boxed in and closed off from retreat).

 

And Skyrim lost the reach due to a lack of any armed force in the provinces (it is implied that a large force of city guards were levied). The Presence of Nordic forces in Markarth is dissuading the population of Markarth from rising up as they did in the Incident, and instead forcing the forsworn into a guerrilla war.

 

And the forsworn are only interested in liberating their own lands (the reach), and rightfully so (OOC).

 

And with the Empire, Skyrim is doomed to collapse with it. I've said this countless times, some resistance is better than no resistance. Regardless, in the worst case scenario, Skyrim would be able to win a war of attrition with the Dominion, modest scenario, they repel the invasion on the battlefield (Pale Pass, for example, would be on Skyrim's terms). Best case scenario, Skyrim and Hammerfell ally.

 

And in the 20s, the US hadn't made itself a major Imperialist Power (on the world stage), and wasn't faced with the threat of invasion (or manipulation/internal meddeling by) a rising power bloc on its borders.

Edited May 1, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[blacksupernova]

I wonder if those of us who've been participating in this topic since the beginning have realized that the Stormcloak supporters (and/or those who don't take either side) tend to stay relatively the same while the Imperial supporters tend to come and go?

 

I find it fascinating and makes me wonder. Did we convince them, or did they give up? Gives you a good idea of the conviction in both sides.

No, don't count on that. There're more reasons for them to not continue arguing than just "we convince them" and "they give up" (and since "they give up" is the result of "we convince them" so basically, you point out just one reason)

[MightyZ0G]

how are the Empire boxed in in the Reach and closed off from retreat?

the Imperial army acknowledge that the Forsworn/Reachmen are superb guerilla fighters but that doesn't mean the Reachmen have them on the ropes.

but if that was the case, how would the Stormcloaks be any better off?

 

without the Empire in the Reach it would be a Silverblood on the throne in Markarth and I'm sure the Reachmen would be less than happy with that arrangement considering how a Silverblood treated their king and also bullies law abiding Reachmen who are just trying to earn a living.

 

it isn't the presence of Nordic forces that have the Reachmen confined to guerilla tactics as the Reach is under Imperial control and therefore the Reach are Imperial (even if they are Nords)

 

who is to say that the Forsworn would stop at liberating just the Reach? they might decide that the only way to live in peace is to drive the Nords out of Skyrim entirely.

 

again, you are jumping to conclusions.

if Skyrim stays in the Empire then both are stronger and the Empire need not collapse.

just because the Mede dynasty might be at an end does not mean that the Empire has to collapse.

the Thalmor game is divide and conquer. if Ulfric has his way then the Empire IS divided and all the former Imperial provinces are set up to be conquered.

Nords may have a resistance to ice based magic but they are still susceptible to fire based magic and that is a school of magic that the Altmer excel in.

it is true that if no magic was used then a relatively small force could hold a mountain pass but, with fire based magic being used, that small force in a confined space will turn into so many charred corpses and then the Dominion can just walk in.

 

also look at the Chinese Empire. 24 dynasties over 4000 years (2100BC to 1911AD) including almost 100 years with a foriegn dynasty ruling the Chinese Empire (Yuan Dynasty 1279 to 1368)

every change of dynasty was a bloody affair but the Empire survived.

the Mede dynasty is over but a new one will emerge to rule the Empire and a period of prosperity and peace will ensue

 

but if, as you say, Cyrodiil is going to fall then the Dominion can easily resupply its army while attacking Skyrim.

if the Empire is in as bad a shape as you claim then the Dominion can attack Skyrim through High Rock and Morrowind as well as through Cyrodiil and by sea while the Stormcloaks have the Reachmen attacking their rear and flanks as the opportunities present themselves.

 

it's a numbers game.

Empire including Skyrim is stronger than Empire without Skyrim or Skyrim without Empire.

as part of the Empire Skyrim, Cyrodiil and High Rock only have to worry about their coast.

without the Empire Skyrim has to worry about all its borders and so do Cyrodiil and High Rock.

 

the USA had become a World power during the end of the 19th century in the Spanish American War which marked the recognition of the country's miltary and industrial abilities and the end of the Spanish Empire. the territories gained from this combined with the earlier expansion of the North American territories could be seen as imperialistic.

but that aside, if the gang wars during the 20s didn't spell the end for a country that you don't consider an Imperialist World Power then why should a war between the rival skooma smuggling gangs spell the end for Cyrodiil or the Empire?

 

yes, there is violence that upsets the civilian population but if the Imperial army wasn't having to deal with a brainwashed egomaniac causing trouble in one of the provinces they could easily restore order within Bravil and kick the Corsairs out of Wayrest.

 

but it doesn't matter what happened to Empires in the real world as Bethesda will decide what happens next based on what will make for the best starting conditions for TESVI.

[RighthandofSithis]

how are the Empire boxed in in the Reach and closed off from retreat?

the Imperial army acknowledge that the Forsworn/Reachmen are superb guerilla fighters but that doesn't mean the Reachmen have them on the ropes.

but if that was the case, how would the Stormcloaks be any better off?

 

without the Empire in the Reach it would be a Silverblood on the throne in Markarth and I'm sure the Reachmen would be less than happy with that arrangement considering how a Silverblood treated their king and also bullies law abiding Reachmen who are just trying to earn a living.

 

it isn't the presence of Nordic forces that have the Reachmen confined to guerilla tactics as the Reach is under Imperial control and therefore the Reach are Imperial (even if they are Nords)

 

who is to say that the Forsworn would stop at liberating just the Reach? they might decide that the only way to live in peace is to drive the Nords out of Skyrim entirely.

 

again, you are jumping to conclusions.

if Skyrim stays in the Empire then both are stronger and the Empire need not collapse.

just because the Mede dynasty might be at an end does not mean that the Empire has to collapse.

the Thalmor game is divide and conquer. if Ulfric has his way then the Empire IS divided and all the former Imperial provinces are set up to be conquered.

Nords may have a resistance to ice based magic but they are still susceptible to fire based magic and that is a school of magic that the Altmer excel in.

it is true that if no magic was used then a relatively small force could hold a mountain pass but, with fire based magic being used, that small force in a confined space will turn into so many charred corpses and then the Dominion can just walk in.

 

also look at the Chinese Empire. 24 dynasties over 4000 years (2100BC to 1911AD) including almost 100 years with a foriegn dynasty ruling the Chinese Empire (Yuan Dynasty 1279 to 1368)

every change of dynasty was a bloody affair but the Empire survived.

the Mede dynasty is over but a new one will emerge to rule the Empire and a period of prosperity and peace will ensue

 

but if, as you say, Cyrodiil is going to fall then the Dominion can easily resupply its army while attacking Skyrim.

if the Empire is in as bad a shape as you claim then the Dominion can attack Skyrim through High Rock and Morrowind as well as through Cyrodiil and by sea while the Stormcloaks have the Reachmen attacking their rear and flanks as the opportunities present themselves.

 

it's a numbers game.

Empire including Skyrim is stronger than Empire without Skyrim or Skyrim without Empire.

as part of the Empire Skyrim, Cyrodiil and High Rock only have to worry about their coast.

without the Empire Skyrim has to worry about all its borders and so do Cyrodiil and High Rock.

 

the USA had become a World power during the end of the 19th century in the Spanish American War which marked the recognition of the country's miltary and industrial abilities and the end of the Spanish Empire. the territories gained from this combined with the earlier expansion of the North American territories could be seen as imperialistic.

but that aside, if the gang wars during the 20s didn't spell the end for a country that you don't consider an Imperialist World Power then why should a war between the rival skooma smuggling gangs spell the end for Cyrodiil or the Empire?

 

yes, there is violence that upsets the civilian population but if the Imperial army wasn't having to deal with a brainwashed egomaniac causing trouble in one of the provinces they could easily restore order within Bravil and kick the Corsairs out of Wayrest.

 

but it doesn't matter what happened to Empires in the real world as Bethesda will decide what happens next based on what will make for the best starting conditions for TESVI.

 

Point 1. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Forsworn_Note_%28Serpent%27s_Bluff%29

 

Looking into further forsworn controlled forts and areas in the reach confirm this.

 

Point 2. If we are talking my RL view of the conflict, I support independence for the reach completely (with criticsism of the forsworn, of course), just as I support the national liberation movements in palestine and Kurdistan.

 

Point 3. Maybe I'm tired, an not looking at it extensively, but I didn't get that.

 

Point 4. The reach is there homeland, the rest of Skyrim isn't. Does the PKK want to wipe all of turkey, Iran, Syria (Etc etc) off the map, or just establish Kurdistan?

 

Point 5. That ignores the dialectics of the Empire's state. it is not the Dynasty, but the entire Empire that is collapsing. The Economy is undoubtedly in ruins (as a result of the Great War and ongoing civil conflicts) meaning that EVERY institution within the Empire is crumbling (the Legion for a start, as it is admitted to be overstretched).

 

Point 6. No Comment.

 

Point 7. The Sea Route has already been dismissed as logistically impossible. The Lengthened supply routes would only make an extended war in a hostile environment impossible. true, the Dominion could invade through Cyrodiil (and that would be the easiest route, as high Rock has a history of evading the worst of Imperial collapses due to its feudal system), but passing through a tight mountain pass is the worst position to put an army in. Firstly, a Nordic Phalanx could stop it dead in its tracks, and secondly, we should remember the Second Punic War.

 

And then, as I have said, in the event the Dominion could take Skyrim on the battlefield, they would be in the same situation they were in with Hammerfell (or in RL, the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan), facing a hostile enviroment, full of nasty creatures and angry Nordic Guerrillas.

 

What I really fear (if I can fear for a game), is that the DOminions goal is not to militarily conquor the Empire, but to instill a puppet government across half of Tamriel by weakening the EMpire to the point that it must concede to the Dominion.

 

Point 8. Already discussed.

 

Point 9. I conceed on the point about the US being a world imperialist power. I never denied it was Imperialist though (in the Leninist sense particularly). Nonetheless, the US was on the rise during the early (and late) 20th century, and in the 20s, didn't need to worry about an aggressive neighbor on its doorstep. Also worth noting, the American economy hadn't been destroyed by a 'Great War' (pun intended). Add serious Gang Warfare to say France or Germany (or some other state decimated by WW1), or perhaps even look at how Russia turned out after a serious civil war, and we may have a better comparison.

 

Point 10. Again, ignoring dialectics. Firstly, each of these incidents (the Great War, revolution in Skyrim, Gang wars in Cyrodiil, and further back, the loss of various provinces during the early 4th era and Umbriel etc), are all connected, in one way or another, to the weakening of the Empire. Furthermore, the Gang Wars in Cyrodiil began long before lfric was even realesed after Markarth, and yet they are still continuing.

 

Point 11. I agree. I expect a Dragon break or something, in which all factions win and lose simultaneously. Weird TES metaphysics and all that.

 

Edited May 2, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Anska]

also look at the Chinese Empire. 24 dynasties over 4000 years (2100BC to 1911AD) including almost 100 years with a foriegn dynasty ruling the Chinese Empire (Yuan Dynasty 1279 to 1368)

 

every change of dynasty was a bloody affair but the Empire survived.

 

the Mede dynasty is over but a new one will emerge to rule the Empire and a period of prosperity and peace will ensue

 

 

Sorry but, that's like saying the Empire in Tamriel would survive if the Aldmeri Dominion conquered the whole continent. There might still be an empire in this case but definitely not the Empire we currently talk about - and even that is simplifying it immensely (and make it more like 2000 years than 4000, everything else is still heavily disputed as far as I know).