Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Monkinsane]

This sums up why any sane person should side with the Stormcloaks:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g

Thank you Lithuim Flower.

[MightyZ0G]

Come to think of it, the stormcloaks will defeat the Damn Aldumeri Dominion - They've got the dragonborn on their side. Lets see the ALdumeri defeat the one who defeated the World-Eater (Which the entire Tamriel with all its armies couldn't do, apperently). If the dragonborn can stop the end of all things, then NO-ONE is a match for him.

 

Muhahahaha, I'm going to RULE THE WORLD!!! Do as I command my Minions! :P

 

in my game it is the Empire that has the Dragonborn to lead the army against the Dominion.

 

and that link to the "argument for the stormcloaks" is ridiculous.

it starts with a blatant lie about the Empire being the reason that the Thalmor are in Skyrim yet it was because of Ulfric that they had the excuse to say that the Empire wasn't imposing the ban on Talos and so were able to move agents into Skyrim to do just that.

it is worth noting that 2 "Imperial" cities still have shrines to Talos and that the High King and several Jarls continued to worship Talos.

 

the whole Disaster at Iolinth argument against a coastal attack is irrelevent as that initially succeeded but it was bad weather combined with a lack of foresight that led to that disaster failing.

the Dominion is in a much better position as they have already had the chance to build up resources to resupply an army as well as having agents reconoitering the land to better prepare for an attack (look what they did to Cyrodiil and ask yourself how difficult it would be for them to do the same to Skyrim considering they have a foothold in Haafingar with 3 defensible positions with Northwatch Keep, the Thalmor Embassy and the Headquarters in Castle Dour and Skyrim has no allies to call on).

the Disaster at Iolinth argument also fails to consider that the Thalmor would also be able to make use of land routes through Morrowind (who is going to stop them there while it is basically an abandoned province?) or even Cyrodiil if they attack there first as Cyrodiil is unlikely to survive a second Great War without Skyrim and Hammerfell as part of the Empire.

 

 

Ulfric was obviously brainwashed or manipulated by the Thalmor to create the situation in Skyrim and the Empire.

if it was all his idea then he is shortsighted without the imagination needed to be a good leader.

 

he should have made a legitimate bid for the throne of Skyrim and then united the Empire against the Mede dynasty (that would have gained him the support of Hammerfell and then he woukld have had an army that stood some kind of chance against the Dominion)

as it is he has divided the Empire even more and has gone for a small victory that will soon be immaterial when he could have been a hero as great as Talos or Ysgramor and founded a dynasty

[MidbossVyers]

Which side would a Forsworn sympathizer (not a zealot) join? Jarl Igmund who ordered the Markarth atrocities is allied with the Empire, while the Silver-bloods who are currently enslaving the Forsworn are allied with the Stormcloaks.

[MightyZ0G]

technically a Reachman would not ally with either, but Imperial would be the lesser of two evils if you have to make a choice

 

the Jarl commissioned the Stormcloaks to retake the Reach from the Forsworn and Ulfric has been blamed for many of those atrocities.

there is also the claim that the Empire was going to recognise independence for the Reach while the Stormcloaks want Skyrim for the Nords and no-one else.

[WolvenEdge]

(>ears droop< sorry, I don't know how to do partial quotes yet) Mighty Zog said "Ulfric was obviously brainwashed or manipulated by the Thalmor to create the situation in Skyrim and the Empire.

if it was all his idea then he is shortsighted without the imagination needed to be a good leader."

 

>tilts head< If you play through the stormcloak's side, or even just listen to the conversation Ulfric has with his general when you step into the Palace of Kings, you find out that he plans, and does, propose a moot to decide the next king of Skyrim, so he does not seem to wish to take the throne entirely by force.

 

>Head straight, ears slightly back< On the other hand, he is replacing Jarls as he goes with those who support him.

 

>ears straight back< I hate politics.

[WolvenEdge]

>ears down< oops. . . wrong quote. Here's what I meant;

 

"he should have made a legitimate bid for the throne of Skyrim and then united the Empire against the Mede dynasty (that would have gained him the support of Hammerfell and then he woukld have had an army that stood some kind of chance against the Dominion). . ."

-mighty zog

 

sorry about that.

[RJLbwb]

(>ears droop< sorry, I don't know how to do partial quotes yet) Mighty Zog said "Ulfric was obviously brainwashed or manipulated by the Thalmor to create the situation in Skyrim and the Empire.

if it was all his idea then he is shortsighted without the imagination needed to be a good leader."

 

>tilts head< If you play through the stormcloak's side, or even just listen to the conversation Ulfric has with his general when you step into the Palace of Kings, you find out that he plans, and does, propose a moot to decide the next king of Skyrim, so he does not seem to wish to take the throne entirely by force.

 

>Head straight, ears slightly back< On the other hand, he is replacing Jarls as he goes with those who support him.

 

>ears straight back< I hate politics.

And yet the Thalmor have a differant story

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

 

Which is backup by that huge feak out Ulfric does when he sees Elenween at the Truce Negotiations,.. Who would think a politician would lie?

 

The real problem with Dream Ulfric is even if he gets all he wants, Skyrim will collapse and he will likely be murdered by his fellow Nords. Most of the economy is run by non-Nords, he tosses them out and it's economic depression time for Skyrim. Heck, Windhelm which is the city of the future for Urlfic has a serial killer problem thanks to the rampart racism Ulfric let lose.

 

But, like other groups with dreams of a racially pure homeland, like say the SS, the Stormcloaks have a cool name and nice uniform, so it's all good then.

Edited May 13, 2013 by RJLbwb

[MidbossVyers]

OK, first of all, Windhelm has several shops run by elves, and most towns, Imperial or Stormcloak, don't let beastkin in. Secondly, the serial killer problem has nothing to do with Ulfric at all, or is he supposed to be responsible for the actions of every homicidal depressed museum curator?

[TheVampireDante]

Most of the economy is run by non-Nords, he tosses them out and it's economic depression time for Skyrim.

 

Unless I missed a line or two in his dialogue - he has no plans on throwing out every non-Nord in the country, just that he doesn't want one ruling the place - He wants his homeland to be run by one of it's own, not an Elve aligned with a group that plans on subjugating mankind or by someone who isn't even in the country to see how it's going (Imperial rule).

 

The racism: The fact that beastfolk are excluded from all cities for the most part (or at least given the lowest of conditions and work) shows it's not just them, not saying that there isn't a racism issue, there clearly is - but it's not just limited to Stormcloak run territories.

The Grey quarter in Windhelm - seen as an example of Ulfric's dislike of Elves:

 

He's fighting a rebellion - that takes time, attention and resources, things he doesn't have any to spare worrying about something like the conditions of "a few refugees", who knows, perhaps after the civil war is over (assuming he won) he might help them sort out the conditions there and improve their situation.

If it was a group of Altmer that had been living there you could be sure he'd probably have thrown them all out already, maybe on the grounds of suspecting a Thalmor infiltration attempt - so he doesn't hate the Dark Elves, he just doesn't have time to deal with them.

 

There's a statement that he doesn't send help to non-Nord settlements - but really, where in the game do you see a fully Nord vacant settlement? Anything that would fit the description of somewhere he wouldn't help would be camping groups or people hiding out in ruins and caves.

 

As stated - the serial killer incident is something his steward and the city guard are supposed to be dealing with, which despite their lack of success - they are trying to do.

 

he should have made a legitimate bid for the throne of Skyrim and then united the Empire against the Mede dynasty (that would have gained him the support of Hammerfell and then he woukld have had an army that stood some kind of chance against the Dominion). . .

 

I think in Ulfric's eyes - he did make a legitimate bid for it.

 

He challenged the High King, and the challenge was accepted. He won.

 

If you win the civil war on Ulfric's side, he even refuses to take the mantle of High King until it is given to him by traditional means:

 

Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

 

Replacing the Jarls is a low move on that front, but every political group grasping at power does what it can to get above the others (and it's not like it doesn't happen on the Imperial side either).

Yes, instigating and continuing the civil war plays into the Thalmor's plans of keeping the country unstable, and the Empire partially preoccupied with dealing with the matter - but they don't want either side winning, as that means focus turns back to them.

 

It's a weasel move - keep them fighting so that we have time to recover and regroup ourselves into a force that can take on the surviving eventual winner in whatever weakened state they are in. Thalmor arrogance is second to none, and they've been playing the power trip card the entire time, but their tactics are those of someone attempting to look tougher than they are. The natural attitude of most Altmer helps with the illusion, as they are generally stuck up with a highly overrated sense of self-superiority anyway, so why not make use of it to cover that they might be a worse off state then they let on.

 

As for why the Thalmor get away with so much in Skyrim? There's still a lot of people that believe that the Thalmor can do what they say, and aren't willing to test any theories about them being otherwise - least not with all the present in country fighting going on.

[WolvenEdge]

>head tilts left< yes the thalmor were on the run. And considering what you learn in lore about their slow reproductive cycle they most probably still are. Most of their army was wiped out in their bid on the imperial capital before the white-gold concordat, thus leading to the thalmor's further defeat by being driven out of hammerfell, leaving them even fewer available troops. The Altmer's low biotic potential also means that their army is only growing slowly, so they are tactically still weak.

 

>head straight, ears up< So how do they manage to maintain the illusion of being fully capable of doing what they say? And why cannot anyone else in Skyrim or Cyrrodil figure this out, >head tilts left again< or am I missing something painfully obvious?