Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LobselVith66]

 

That can be said for everything said so far.

 

Tullis never says that the Empire is going to be pro-active against the Thalmor. He states that he thinks they are a danger - his opinion.

 

 

Did Ulfric murder anybody i Malkarth - or however it is spells? We don't know. They say he didn't, but we don't know. You see? Drop common sense and your own arguments dissapear.

 

Except Tullis never states that the Empire is planning to launch an attack against the Thalmor, only that the Empire is keeping an eye out. Given that, the Empire may allow the status quo to remain, or they may not.

 

 

No, with common sense we know they plan to attack the Thalmor. When the general himself hints it, it means it's a possibility. Then to add the fact the Empire is run by men, and human instincts. Common sense goes a long way.

 

You're inferring something from Tullis' statement that isn't there, because he never says that the Empire will attack the Thalmor.

 

 

The Empire will try to attack the Thalmor as much as the Stormcloaks. Who gets to attack depends on Dovahkiin.

 

We know the Stormcloak leadership wants to deal with the Thalmor. We can't say the same for the leadership of the Empire.

[LobselVith66]

 

He's only dedicated to the cause because he believes he can snatch power from a weakened government. He's a great actor, orator, but not a great leader. A great leader doesn't run from an Empire, and start a rebellion to push his own jingoistic goals. Great leaders are like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. These people who actually used NON-violent measures to get their point across. You can't argue his slaughter of the Reach, It's one of Ulfric's skeletons that he tends to hide from his followers.

 

You can argue what happened in the Reach when the book that makes the claim ("The Bear of Markarth") is contested by people who were actually living in the Reach. Even the pro-Legion Jarl of Markarth, who had Ulfric arrested on behalf of the Empire (to appease the Thalmor who discovered it), attests to this. Also, you can't compare the living conditions and societies of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. to the world of Tamriel. It's a very different place. Neither Tullius nor Ulfric are advocating peaceful resistance here. Both of these men are leaders of armies, and are looking to remove the other from power.

 

 

It's not quite nationalism. Nationalism is supporting your nation. In a sense, the nation that rules Skyrim is the Empire. Ulfric is using Jingoism. Jingoism is a extreme from of nationalism that includes racism, and discrimination against other races. Ulfric isn't a patriot by using this war, he's being a mass murder who wishes to push forward his agenda a master race supremacy for the Nords.

 

If that was the case, why does Ulfric allow elves into the Stormcloaks? Why doesn't Ulfric exterminate the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter, who have been living there since the eruption of Red Mountain many years ago? Why doesn't Ulfric kill the Argonians, who are living on the docks of Windhelm because the general Nord populace would likely attack or kill them if they entered the city?

 

 

I said Ulfric is fascist for using military force to enforce genocide. True, to extend, all of the countries above have done so to other races. However, this is relevant because we're comparing the Empire to Ulfric. We're comparing High King Torygg/ Emperor Titus Mede II to Ulfric. Compared to these people, during their rules, they've only used military force to protect their people. Ulfric used military force to kill anybody who wasn't a Nord or didn't agree with his ideals.

 

You mean when he reclaimed the Reach on behalf of the Empire, who offered him religious freedom in exchange for regaining control of the religion from Madanach and the Reachmen? Doesn't that reflect on the fact that the Empire wanted military force used for something other than "protecting their people"?

 

Also, the narrative doesn't show Ulfric killing people simply for disagreeing with him. Ulfric spares the Jarls he removes from power, despite the fact that they were alligned with the Empire, which is specifically brought up when he disagrees with killing Jarl Balgruuf. Ulfric also wants Legate Rikke spared, despite the fact that she served as Tullius' right-hand person.

 

 

This is irrelevant because we're talking about Ulfric. Ulfric is DOING the ethnic cleansing, and he LIKES/HAS done it. So, that doesn't make any sense.

 

When is Ulfric doing any ethnic cleansing in the narrative of Skyrim? When does Ulfric say he likes performing ethnic cleansing? His focus is on emancipating Skyrim, restoring Talos worship, and removing the Dominion from power.

[Matth85]

He states that he thinks they are a danger - his opinion.

An opinion from a general. I am not sure if you are familiar with the military ranking system, but .. well.. google it.

 

Except Tullis never states that the Empire is planning to launch an attack against the Thalmor, only that the Empire is keeping an eye out. Given that, the Empire may allow the status quo to remain, or they may not.

Common sense goes a long way to it.

 

We know the Stormcloak leadership wants to deal with the Thalmor. We can't say the same for the leadership of the Empire.

We dont need a statement from the leadership. The empire follows military system and ranking, you are on a need to know basis. As of now, you need to know nothing. What we do know is that Tullius does not approve of the Thalmor. That alone speaks enough.

[LobselVith66]

 

An opinion from a general. I am not sure if you are familiar with the military ranking system, but .. well.. google it.

 

Is Tullis the Emperor? One of the Elder Council? I'm pretty sure he's the man following orders, even when he doesn't agree with them.

 

 

Common sense goes a long way to it.

 

It doesn't take much common sense to realize that an opinion is precisely that: an opinion.

 

 

We dont need a statement from the leadership. The empire follows military system and ranking, you are on a need to know basis. As of now, you need to know nothing. What we do know is that Tullius does not approve of the Thalmor. That alone speaks enough.

 

All it says is that Tullis doesn't like the Thalmor.

[RighthandofSithis]

Bombom, I'd quote you but I don't want to rummage back through the argument when I could be playing Skyrim.

 

First, your comment on nationalism is self contradictory. You say Ulfric is not a nationalist, but then you say he is an extreme nationalist.

Furthermore, just because the Empire rules over Skyrim, doesn't mean he is anti nationalist. He wants to free the Nordic people and Skyrim as a nation. That is nationalism.

 

Secondly, you say that only people who use non violence are good leaders. Did Lenin make Russia better for the Russian people? Was he a good Leader? Was George Washington a good leader?

Revolution is a bloody affair. And while there may be blood in the short term, Skyrim will be able to leave the crumbling Empire to make itself self sufficient, and able to combat the Thalmor in it's own right. The ends justify the means.

[Matth85]

Is Tullis the Emperor? One of the Elder Council? I'm pretty sure he's the man following orders, even when he doesn't agree with them.

Way to miss the point. I am not sure you know, but a generals opinion holds weight. He follow orders, but that is beside the point. Besides, we cant say anything about what the Elder Council or the Emperor mean - since we do not know.

 

It doesn't take much common sense to realize that an opinion is precisely that: an opinion.

Neither does it take to realize that the Empire will strike when possible.

 

All it says is that Tullis doesn't like the Thalmor.

Yeah, because you do not need to know more. And from that, we do understand that the Legion in Skyrim does not like Thalmor. Heck, the Thalmor invaded Cyrodiil.

 

I simply fail to see how you can't see that they want to attack? If I invade your country, almost takes over it and make your life a hell. would you ally with me later?

Far from it, you would wait for a chance to stab me in the back.

 

It's simple tactic. Attacking when you are weak is no good, it's better to attack when you are strong. We can fairly sure say they will attack, we can't pinpoint anythig though. Mostly because the Legion wouldn't tell you something unless you needed to know.

[ufw7]

An important question. Will the empire again become strong enough to defeat the Thalmor? Even with the help of the dovakiin it will be difficult for the empire to regain their strengt to fight.

[Matth85]

Will the empire again become strong enough to defeat the Thalmor? Even with the help of the dovakiin it will be difficult for the empire to regain their strengt to fight.

A good question. Let me follow it up:

Can the Stormcloak defeat the Thalmor if the Empire can not?

 

Looking at the map, the Legion got 2/3 of the points in Skyrim. With some math, I can now take an estimate the Empire is stronger than the Stormcloak. Now, if the war could end and they could recover some strength, they got a chance.

 

Notice, I am not saying the Stormcloak could not take the Thalmor down, I just mean the Empire is stronger than the Stormcloak as of now, and with the help of Docahkiin can increase their chance. They have defeated the Thalmor once before.

 

Either way, it would be quite the fight to beat the Thalmor. Possible for either side, but a tough fight either way.

[bombomb]

 

It's not the fact that duel was legal. It's the morality being questioned. People run when they have guilt. Why did Ulfric run if he wasn't guilty? If he truly believed his cause was just, he would have accepted the punishment for it.

 

A person will also run when there are people trying to kill him. It has nothing to do with guilt and everything to do with survival. If the Legion is trying to execute Ulfric, then he's going to try to survive. It's human instinct.

 

No, he ran because he knew he was guilty. Killing the High King of Skyrim is against the law. The Empire does not follow "Nordic traditions".

 

 

Again, the morality is being questioned here. Ulfric had better ways to approach the situation with Empire. He took the violent route, when all he could have done is petition to the High King for independence, and practice non-violent civil disobedience. Ulfric's ways are barbaric, which puts Skyrim closer to uncivilization.

 

Ulfric didn't know that Torygg respected him as much as he did. While we - as the protagonist - know this because of Solitude's court mage personally informing us, Ulfric didn't at the time. All Ulfric knew was that the Empire and Torygg capitulated to the Dominion. Regardless of our own opinion on the matter, Ulfric disagreed with how the Empire and Torygg were handling things. Ulfric challenged the High King, which is completely legal and has a precedence in Nordic history.

 

It's not "LEGAL". The Empire wouldn't be spending so much manpower to hunt him down. He's a usurper/murderer who killed his High King.

 

 

The only reason why Skyrim has a stable society is because Legionaries die on foreign soil everyday to protect them, their ideals and their way of life. Why does Ulfric work so hard to destroy this concept? Ironically , since Ulfric was an Imperial solider - being a veteran of the Great War - he did align himself with the ideals of the Imperials. He must know the Nord way of life is obsolete in civil society.

 

I don't agree with the idea that Skyrim is stable because of the Empire - it plunged into a civil war because enough people had a problem with the Thalmor having free reign over civilians throughout the Empire and having their right to worship being revoked - not to mention the Thalmor being able to kidnap, torture, and murder people throughout the Empire with full impunity.

 

No, the Empire plunged into Civil War because Usurp-Ulfric thought it was okay to "pick and choose" his own Nordic traditions to justify murder, and wrongful usage of his power. The Thalmor aren't torturing people to a large scale where you see concentration camps all over the place. The Thalmor mostly use espionage. This shows the Thalmor are somewhat limited in their power in conducting they're illegal search, and seizures. Ulfric's arrogance makes him takes situations like this, and b lows them out of proportions.

 

Does Ulfric realize starting a Civil War will mostly weaken both sides, allows the Thalmor to invade? It's a classic Peloponnesian War setup, expect this time, it's the suicide of Skyrim.

 

His little rebellion is only his act to take power from a weakened government. He's an opportunist, not a revolutionary.

 

That's certainly the view that some people have of Ulfric.

 

 

"Poor, old guy", ok so you got me on semantics. However, I was using it as an extended metaphor to describe how Ulfric manipulated Roggvir. Your argument doesn't dispute this, so , I'll move on.

 

How did Ulfric manipulate Roggvir into it? There isn't any indication that Ulfric coerced Roggvir into opening the gate for Ulfric to leave Solitude. In fact, Roggvir defends his decision even when his life is going to be taken.

 

The reason why Ulfric escaped is because Roggvir diverted attention to himself. If that wasn't the case, why didn't Roggvir escape with him?

 

Ulfric needed a fall guy, like he always does. If it's High King Torygg, an innocent man with family, it's your average Joe - Roggvir.

 

 

Nord tradition? Nords don't own Skyrim, because many races have lived in Skyrim long before the Nords. Hm? Their traditions don't matter? Why?

 

I know why...

 

Traditions don't require that Nords "own" Skyrim, or even for them to have been the first people to populate Skyrim. In the political system that is recognized by the Empire, Jarls can challenge the ruling High King - even Torygg recognized this as High King.

 

That doesn't seem to be the case if Ulfric was going to get his head chopped off for it. The Empire exists for this very reason, so the political system in Skyrim doesn't fall to such barbaric traditions.

 

 

Ulfric and his followers have a god-complex over other races. Their inferior to the Nords, so their traditions are irrelevant.

 

When does Ulfric state this? People seem to continually use this against Ulfric, but no one ever cites any examples to illustrate that Ulfric actually believes this.

 

 

I'm not too sure what you mean by that. The Dark Brotherhood has the listener assassinate the Emperor for gold. That just seems like a basic conspiracy murder- here.... nothing to talk about...

 

By a member of the Elder Council who wanted the Emperor dead. Clearly, the political system of the Empire can involve as much bloodshed as the Nordic system. In fact, the Listener can kill more people getting to the Emperor than Ulfric does in simply challenging Torygg to a duel over the throne.

 

Of course there's corruption in the Empire. I never said there wasn't. However, the assassination of the Emperor doesn't lead to a Civil War that kills thousands of people. The Empire knows how handle situations like this peacefully, because they're civilized.

 

However, Ulfric's form of being civilized is killing anyone who disagrees, or doesn't side with him.

 

 

 

 

Talos's legacy isn't his religion. Talos's legacy is the Empire - creating civilization in Tamerial, to cradle humankind. Without Talos, humans would be nothing but neolithic Normads.

 

So far, the Empire has protected this idea by signing a Treaty with the Thalmor - however Ulfric's arrogance challenges this...

 

You realize that human civilizations existed long before Talos, right? Even Tamriel had humans living there before the Nords occupied Skyrim. Talos established the Septim Empire, which is effectively gone since Martin ended the Oblivion Crisis. Now the Empire is in a subservient position to the Dominion, and Ulfric sees an alternative through making Skyrim independent of the Empire.

 

 

Tiber Septim's Empire isn't like the rest of the civilizations before it. It's arguably one of longest lasting, and stable human civilizations in world, at this point , because it practices some of the earliest forms democracy. History has shown that democracy develops civilizations into more technologically, and culturally advanced. The Empire represents progress, a feat that Ulfric can't prove himself to live up to.

 

 

Jarl Igmund doesn't dispute the fact Ulfric ethnically cleansed the people from the Reach, he just says it in a nicer way. The existence of the Forsworn isn't just some magical coincidence. It's strong evidence of Ulfric's crimes against humanity.

 

Jarl Igmund doesn't make any claims of ethnic cleansing by anyone - Ulfric or the Legion. The Forsworn want their territory back. It's simply evidence that the Reachmen don't want to live under Nordic rule. There's no evidence that confirms that Ulfric or the Empire committed any crimes against the Reachmen.

Of course he doesn't, people don't tend to admit to murder. Look at Ulfric, he's not calling his murder of civilians wrong, he's saying it's justified by Talos.... "Holy War".

 

Yes, there is evidence that Ulfric commited crimes against the Reachmen. Did you think the Reachmen left their native homelands willingly? No, Ulfric purged them from it. I doubt the Forsworn resistance would be created if some from of foul play wasn't there.

 

 

This is a gray area. Some people also say that Ulfric got a militia to remove the native people from Reach. Even more so, I doubt the Empire gave him the green light to commit genocide. Even so, he went too far.

 

By "some people," you mean everyone who is actually living in the Reach. No person actually disputes this account - one of the Reachmen says this is what happened, the Jarl of Markarth says this is what happened (and he was there since the Forsworn killed his father when he tried to negotiate with the Forsworn), and the only source disputing these events is one book by an author who wasn't actually privy to what really happened.

 

Again, there's no evidence that any genocide took place. All you're doing is citing a book that is apparently factually inaccurate, according to multiple sources who were living in the Reach at the time and have no reason to lie on Ulfric's behalf when Markarth is currently alligned to the Legion and the Empire.

The evidence is easy to figure out. The Reachmen are the natives of the reach. The Reachmen don't live or control The Reach anymore, the Nords do.

 

Why?

 

Ulfric was paid "religious freedom" to kill The Reachmen from their native homelands. Ironically, Ulfric was too ignorant to realize the Empire could reverse that decision because of the ramifications of the Great War.

 

So, all those people got killed for nothing.

 

 

 

 

Religious freedom? Worshiping Talos only became an issue when Ulfric caused a uproar about it. Until then, people could quietly worship Talos, and they still do ex. the Jarl of Solitude. Although, is religious freedom worth destroying every aspect of civilized society? Are you sure you're with Ulfric to move from a more democratic government to a theocracy? I don't think so.

No, the Empire offered Ulfric religious freedom in Markarth, and then betrayed him when the Thalmor found out - this was the inception of the Stormcloak rebellion. The Empire and Skyrim have no real democracy - it's either the Emperor and the Elder Council, or the High King and the Jarls. Neither is a democracy when the nobility are ruling over the people.

 

It's the other way around, Ulfric betrayed the Empire. Ulfric was too selfish to care about the needs of the general populace. If they aren't Nords, they don't deserve to have the same freedoms. The Empire's treaty with the Thalmor saved thousands, if not millions of people on both sides of war. That sounds hell of a lot better than killing Non-Nords just because you want to worship a god. Religion doesn't justify the means.

 

Also, it doesn't have to be a pure democratic structure. Empires such as the Roman and Greek Empires, had some forms of democracy, but they weren't complete democracies. The Empire allows their citizens to petition to their Jarls, and their High King. This , in fact , is a part of the democratic process. It's in fetal stages, but it devolops over time. Ulfric's solution is move Skyrim into the Dark Ages, by eliminating bureaucracy, and moving Skyrim to a more theocratic form of government.

 

 

It saved the Empire and it's people. I see more people alive than people in Thalmor prison camps.

 

Also, I don't see the Thalmor making Internment camp; they kidnap people who provide information, not for the sake of just doing it. However, that doesn't justify it.

 

The Thalmor can kidnap anyone they want to. When you listen to some of the Stormcloaks talking, it's mentioned that family members had disappeared because the Thalmor took them. Even Hadvar's uncle (who supports the Empire) mentions this as a problem. The Justiciars will kill someone simply for saying that he or she has the right to "worship whoever I want."

 

The Empire also can release particular citizens. They're are some people within the Empire that have influence over the Thalmor, like General Tillus and the Emperor.

 

Justiciars can't go around killing anybody they want to, they have to have probably reason.

 

However, in your case, there can be exceptions, but the most part you don't see Thalmor marching around like Nazis. The people of your exception should be treated individually.

 

 

 

However, the Empire did save lives , but some sacrifices must be made for the greater good.

 

Plus, the Empire is a ceasefire with the Thalmor, according to General Tillus who questions alliance of Thalmor, hinting they're gearing up to defeat them once and for all.

 

Tullis' opinion of the situation doesn't mean that the Empire is planning anything. Maybe they are, but we don't really know for sure.

 

The citizens of the Empire don't really know for sure that they want Usurp-Ulfric telling them what to do, instead of an Empire that has already proven itself to be more economically, and politically stable.

 

 

For Ulfric, if they don't agree with him or side with him - perish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

They're living in his city, for now, but how long will that last? Ulfric isn't the offical High King yet, so maybe when he become High King, he'll have the support he needs to remove them all from Skyrim.

 

Argonians are forced to live OUTSIDE of Windhelm. This is comfirmed by Brunwolf Free-Winter, who becomes the Jarl after Ulfric's death.If you speak the Argonians near the ports, they too confirm this. They even have a hole they're all force to live in outside the city walls. The city of Windhelm offers them no protection or food.

 

If Brunwolf becomes Jarl, the Argonians remain living on the docks, because the general Nord populace would likely attack or kill them. It has nothing to do with Ulfric. And Ulfric already controls Windhelm and is outside Legion control - he could remove the Dunmer if he wanted to, but he doesn't. And we can see at least one elven Stormcloak, so I don't get why everyone thinks that the Stormcloaks are exclusive to Nords only. Even the two belligerent Nords we encounter in Windhelm are upset that the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloaks!

 

Brunwolf states he has plans to integrate Argonians into the city. For so long, under Ulfric, they've been discriminated against , and their relationship with Nords is extremely fragile to point they haven't start killing each other. Of course Ulfric can't remove the Dunmer, he's fighting a losing war, and he needs man power fighting, instead of removing people. If he does get into the right political atmosphere, Ulfric will remove Dunmer, being pressured by his echleon to. Also, your opinion that since there's one eleven Stormcloak, there must be no racism? That's not true, a perfect real life example of this is African Americans who served in the Vietnam War. Even after Harry Truman's integration of the armed forces, after World War II, African Americans still were not consider as equal as their white comrades. Elves may be able to join the Stormcloaks, but that doesn't mean they'll be treated equally.

 

Argonians and Dark Elfs face the parallel living conditions as Jewish ghettos during World War II in Windhelm. A walk through the Gray Quarter, and the docks is all the proof you need.

 

The Dunmer have been living in the Gray Quarter prior to Ulfric's reign as Jarl, and the Argonians live on the docks because the people throughout Nirn are generally racist. Racism can be seen in Morrowind, Oblivion, and now Skyrim. It's nothing new.

 

So, Ulfric represents no progress towards racial equality? Ok, so that's fine if Ulfric wants to discriminate non-Nords because they're subhuman. I don't agree with that at all, and I don't think anybody in their right mind should. Just because racism is universal Elder Scroll Series doesn't make it right.

 

 

Wrong, he did remove Argonians from the city.

 

The Argonians never lived inside Windhelm.

They live on the Docks because Ulfric refuses to let them in...

 

 

 

Since High King Torggy mandated that Dunmer should be allowed to live in the city, he had no choice.

 

The Dunmer moved into Skyrim almost a century ago! The Dunmer who moved into what's now the Gray Quarter state that they left Morrowind after the eruption of Red Mountain, and the book "On the Great Collapse" is cited as a letter between the Arch-mage and the Jarl of Winterhold - Jarl Valdimar and Arch-Mage Deneth - about the eruption of Red Mountain possibly being responsible for the destruction of Winterhold (and also making reference to Dunmer being welcomed into Solstheim and Skryim), taking place over 80 years ago. The Great Collapse (which some blame on the Red Year) took place on 122 of the 4th Era, and the civil war takes place in 201 of the 4th Era.

 

That doesn't make any sense because we're talking about the Dunmer being allowed to live inside Windhelm, not Skyrim.

 

Ironically, this evidence supports my argument because The Great Collapse made many Dunmers homeless, who looked for refugee in cities such as Windhelm. High King Torggy's mandate was sympathetic towards them.

 

 

However, when he becomes the official High King, he'll most likely reverse that decision. Yes, he does exterminate people from not being Nords. You're forgetting he does during his crusade for the Reach.

 

According to a book that is we know is factually inaccurate.

 

Weird, because the Jarl of Igmund doesn't think so, and Ulfric takes pride in it.

 

 

 

Even more so, he allows his army to kill neutral soldiers example - the Battle of Whiterun. Again, Ulfric shows people who don't align themselves with Nord supremacy must be exterminated.

 

The Stormcloaks are fighting against the Legion. Ulfric spares Jarl Balgruuf.

 

Whiterun guards aren't legionnaire soldiers.

 

Whiterun is also neutral before Ulfric's invasion.

 

Ulfric exiles Balgruuf to humiliate him, and the Empire.

 

Of course Ulfric doesn't mind a non-nord protagonist. The protagonist is the DRAGONBORN, Talos was dragonborn. Of course he wants you on his side, as a cultural and warfare advantage.

 

He's just manipulating you.

Ulfric doesn't seem to mind other Stormcloaks being non-Nords, either.

 

If he can manipulate them, yeah...

 

 

However, Ulfric fought because he knew he was cornered like a rat.

 

The Emperor didn't, he accepted his fate.

 

The Emperor obviously is the more honorable here by accepting his fate.

Tullius, Ulfric, and Titus II all accept their fate at the end. Tullius and Ulfric fight, and a trap is set for the Dark Brotherhood with a decoy.

Tullius surrenders, Ulfric still kills him. Ulfric the Usurp had no where to run, and what decoy? We're talking about the real Emperor. Unless, the one at the end of the Dark Broterhood storyline was a decoy too... if you say so...

 

 

Of course, the Empire has plans to go war with the Thalmor - General Tillus hints this at the end of the civil war.

 

You mean Tullius provides his opinion about the Thalmor, and there's no evidence that the Empire plan on attacking the Thalmor. They may, or they may not. We don't know.

 

Ironically, there's evidence of Ulfric working for the Thalmor. There's a dossier , inside the Thalmor Embassy , that states Ulfric was one of their espionage contacts inside the Empire. Who's to say Ulfric isn't softening up Skyrim so the Thalmor can take over?

 

The Civil War doesn't help any side militarily, but it does seem to be helping the Thalmor.

 

 

However, Ulfric definitely doesn't have the wisdom , or character to lead such a feat against the Thalmor. A leader as hypocritical , as himself , would only lead to more peril because of his blood-thirst for power.

 

Who's to say Ulfric isn't only after the Thalmor, but the world?

 

You mean, like the Empire, when the Legion troops contemplate if they'll be sent into Morrowind to take over now that they control Skyrim?

 

The thing is the Empire has already exerted control over those regions, with acceptance , however Ulfric's attitude puts him in the position in which he can extend Nord control over all Tamriel, obviously not peacefully.

[bombomb]

Bombom, I'd quote you but I don't want to rummage back through the argument when I could be playing Skyrim.

 

First, your comment on nationalism is self contradictory. You say Ulfric is not a nationalist, but then you say he is an extreme nationalist.

Furthermore, just because the Empire rules over Skyrim, doesn't mean he is anti nationalist. He wants to free the Nordic people and Skyrim as a nation. That is nationalism.

 

It's not contradictory. Nationalism and Jingoism are different forms of nationalism.

 

They're not the same...

 

Just because a Ford Mustang is a car, and a Toyota Camry is a car doesn't mean they're the same.

Secondly, you say that only people who use non violence are good leaders. Did Lenin make Russia better for the Russian people? Was he a good Leader? Was George Washington a good leader?

 

Ulfric had the choice to use non-violence, and he didn't,

 

Instead, thousands of innocent lives have to die because Usurp wants his word to be law.

 

Most likely, if you were living Skyrim would have sacrifice yourself fight with this tyrant.

 

I doubt anyone here would want that.

 

Revolution is a bloody affair. And while there may be blood in the short term, Skyrim will be able to leave the crumbling Empire to make itself self sufficient, and able to combat the Thalmor in it's own right. The ends justify the means.

 

Ulfric doesn't offer short-term blood, he offers long term blood by taking an already delicate situation, the peace between the Empire/Thalmor , and use it have more innocents sent to their death. The ends don't justify the means if more killing is to lead to more killing , and less stability.

Edited December 29, 2011 by bombomb