Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Pingonaut]

The Stormcloak members have really ugly armor and I don't want them running around Skyrim with it, so I chose the Imperials. No more ugly!

Ulfric is also a racist arse who is only in it for his own glory, even though he makes it look like he's fighting for Skyrim. Just listen to things he says endgame. He wants to make a song out of his glorious victory or death by Dovahkiin.

[janaseca]

Hey guys! I didn't read all this but I think the point of Bethesda was just making a war without good sides =P And they did it very well.

 

So every side will have good and bad points, you need to choose a point of view and make your decision.

 

In my first playthrough I was neutral, but then I choose based on the who will govern Skyrim, in my opinion both Tullius and Ulfric are stupid and mediocre. Ulfric can have SOME good intentions but his behavior is more like a neo-nazist guy, his actions contradict his ideals. After all, who are the real children of Skyrim? Nords? Dwarfs? Snow elfs, lol? bacterias? maybe the lost race of the pink yetis?

 

I think the children of Skyrim are those who LIVE there today, no matter the race, color or blood ( or tail? :whistling: ).

So definitely, Ulfric is discarded as a high king of Skyrim for me. And I'm a fan of Elisif the Fair the Jarl of Solitude, I think she is the best option we can find in Skyrim right now. Will she be manipulated by the Thalmor? I don't know yet, but that IS another problem. We can't solve everything at the same time right?

 

If the thalmor cause some trouble after, we can just deal with them. You have the Power of the Voice, right? Just throw a GO F*** UP on those elffs.

 

So my choice is Elisif!

Edited February 8, 2012 by janaseca

[Lachdonin]

Actually no, the Empire wining over Skyrim is not what is best for ALL OF TAMRIEL. Remember that even if the Empire wins it will still only consist of three provinces. All the rest have either left the Empire or joined the Aldemeri dominion. Skyrim doesn't need the Empire which if you sided with the Stormcloaks is just Cyrodil and High Rock.

 

That doesn't actually argue against the statement that the Empire is best for Tamriel. If you're trying to go down the road of saying Skyrim alone is stronger than the Empire united, well, thats been beaten three ways to sunday. Simply put, 3>1.

 

Since the Thalmor are the greatest threat to Tamriel, and the Empire united stands the greatest chance of defeating them, that makes the Empire best for Tamriel, regardless of how many provinces it contains.

[Scribblesix]

But the empire are already beaten, the empire is crawling with Thalmor agents and they seem to dictate a great deal of it's policy, I'm very puzzled by the constant 'the empire will beat them soon refrain'.

[Lachdonin]

But the empire are already beaten, the empire is crawling with Thalmor agents and they seem to dictate a great deal of it's policy, I'm very puzzled by the constant 'the empire will beat them soon refrain'.

 

The Thalmor dictate a single policy, that regarding the worship of Talos. Something which, by all indications, the Empire is supposed to be managing its self, which means their actually violating the concordant anyway, but thats beside the point.

 

Every Imperial character mentions something about restarting the war with the Dominion. The presence of Thalmor within Imperial borders doesn't change that fact. There were German envoys, agents and dignataries all through France and England during the Inter-War period, pressuring the governments to allow Germany's violations of the treaty to slip by. The presence of representitives of an enemy power within the borders of a nation does not mean they said nation has already lost. You can rest assured there are Imperial agents inside Domminion territory doing the same thing. We already know they supply a resistance in Valenwood.

[RighthandofSithis]

That doesn't actually argue against the statement that the Empire is best for Tamriel. If you're trying to go down the road of saying Skyrim alone is stronger than the Empire united, well, thats been beaten three ways to sunday. Simply put, 3>1.

 

Doesn't anyone observe my argument?

 

If Skyrim leaves the Empire, it will rebuild itself and fight the Thalmor, most likely with an alliance of mankind. By now, the Redguards would have remade themselves into a force capable of combating the Dominion again, and I'm sure The Bretons would assist.

 

And if Skyrim remains in the Empire, it still may collpase. And then again it may not collpase. That would depend entirely on the Emperor following Titus Mede II.

[Lachdonin]

That doesn't actually argue against the statement that the Empire is best for Tamriel. If you're trying to go down the road of saying Skyrim alone is stronger than the Empire united, well, thats been beaten three ways to sunday. Simply put, 3>1.

 

Doesn't anyone observe my argument?

 

If Skyrim leaves the Empire, it will rebuild itself and fight the Thalmor, most likely with an alliance of mankind. By now, the Redguards would have remade themselves into a force capable of combating the Dominion again, and I'm sure The Bretons would assist.

 

And if Skyrim remains in the Empire, it still may collpase. And then again it may not collpase. That would depend entirely on the Emperor following Titus Mede II.

 

Thats a lot of 'mights'.

 

Skyrim 'Might' rebuild (Bear in mind, Balgruf indicates that before the Empire, the Jarls of Skyrim regularly assassinated and fought against eachother in open warfare)

Hammerfell 'Might' become a force that could stand against the Domminion (Also bear in mind that Hammerfell has yet to actually stand agains the Domminion. What they fought, even relying on Legionaries, was a butchered fragment of the Domminion armies)

An independant Highrock 'Might' side with Skyrim

Together they 'Might' be able to defeat the Domminion

 

So far, only one power has stood up against the Domminion. The Empire. They didn't lose, but they didn't exactly win either. Still, theres a lot less 'mights' involved in investing in the Empire.

The Empire 'Might' get a good ruler after Mede II (Bear in mind, Mede seems to have been a really good Emperor in the beginning, and he was certianly a good commander)

The Empire 'Might' be able to defeat the Domminion

 

I agree though that a lot of this hinges on who becomes Emperor after Mede.

[RighthandofSithis]

That doesn't actually argue against the statement that the Empire is best for Tamriel. If you're trying to go down the road of saying Skyrim alone is stronger than the Empire united, well, thats been beaten three ways to sunday. Simply put, 3>1.

 

Doesn't anyone observe my argument?

 

If Skyrim leaves the Empire, it will rebuild itself and fight the Thalmor, most likely with an alliance of mankind. By now, the Redguards would have remade themselves into a force capable of combating the Dominion again, and I'm sure The Bretons would assist.

 

And if Skyrim remains in the Empire, it still may collpase. And then again it may not collpase. That would depend entirely on the Emperor following Titus Mede II.

 

Thats a lot of 'mights'.

 

Skyrim 'Might' rebuild (Bear in mind, Balgruf indicates that before the Empire, the Jarls of Skyrim regularly assassinated and fought against eachother in open warfare)

Hammerfell 'Might' become a force that could stand against the Domminion (Also bear in mind that Hammerfell has yet to actually stand agains the Domminion. What they fought, even relying on Legionaries, was a butchered fragment of the Domminion armies)

An independant Highrock 'Might' side with Skyrim

Together they 'Might' be able to defeat the Domminion

 

So far, only one power has stood up against the Domminion. The Empire. They didn't lose, but they didn't exactly win either. Still, theres a lot less 'mights' involved in investing in the Empire.

The Empire 'Might' get a good ruler after Mede II (Bear in mind, Mede seems to have been a really good Emperor in the beginning, and he was certianly a good commander)

The Empire 'Might' be able to defeat the Domminion

 

I agree though that a lot of this hinges on who becomes Emperor after Mede.

 

For a start, when you say there are a lot of 'mights', are you implying that you can easily predict the future? I don't think so. The future will always have a lot of mights, regardless of the outcome of Skyrim's civil war.

 

Secondly, yes Hammerfell originally fought the Dominion with a large number of legionaries, but after twenty years of independence, they would have rebuilt their own armies (keeping in mind, Redguard culture demands all male youth to join the army, or die trying). And when you think about it, how many Legionaries could have been spared. For Decianus' armies to have had any success in Cyrodiil, they would have needed a large number of soldiers.

 

Thirdly, it was the War of Succession when the Jarls fought amongst themselves. That ended several eras ago. Yes, Skyrim was never as strong as she was before, but Ulfric would would make Skyrim considerably more stable. And as it is an established fact that Ulfric is power hungry (I'm not going to contest). This would be proof that he would rebuild Skyrim, as he would assert his own power over the Jarls (Which either side does anyway) and expand his own strength.

 

Think of Stalin. He forced out any opposition and made the USSR into an industrial power within a few years. He later made the USSR into a superpower. It's not pretty, but in times of such hardship and uncertainty, you need a strong leader. (But as a Trotskyist, I believe Trotsky would have been more beneficial to the USSR).

 

Fourthly, Tamrielic humans would unite against the Thalmor. Common enemies.

 

If, you'd like to read more, feel free to read what I have posted earlier.

[terzho]

Actually no, the Empire wining over Skyrim is not what is best for ALL OF TAMRIEL. Remember that even if the Empire wins it will still only consist of three provinces. All the rest have either left the Empire or joined the Aldemeri dominion. Skyrim doesn't need the Empire which if you sided with the Stormcloaks is just Cyrodil and High Rock.

 

That doesn't actually argue against the statement that the Empire is best for Tamriel. If you're trying to go down the road of saying Skyrim alone is stronger than the Empire united, well, thats been beaten three ways to sunday. Simply put, 3>1.

 

Since the Thalmor are the greatest threat to Tamriel, and the Empire united stands the greatest chance of defeating them, that makes the Empire best for Tamriel, regardless of how many provinces it contains.

 

"Best for Tamriel". That is a really subjective view. To put it into context. Oh yes it's best for the Aboriginal children of Australia if we seperate them from their mothers.Remember that to the other races the Empire was formed in pretty much the same way as the Aldemeri Dominion is doing now. Your definition of "Best for Tamriel" is more rather "Best for Cyrodil". The provinces that have joined the Aldemeri Dominion have not shown any signs in the lore that they want the Empire back. Black Marsh is doing well for itself. Skyrim wants independence. The Redguards left the Empire. Also have you actually seen a map of Tamriel. The Summerset Isles is a little Island at the bottom of the continent. For the Aldemeri Dominion to reach Skyrim they would have to cross all of Cyrodil or Hammerfell. Skyrim without the Empire leaching resources off them ( know through dialogue, Markath mines) is actually rebuilding and willing to fight. Cyrodil is too busy taking orders from the Thalmor to fight the real enemy.

Edited February 8, 2012 by terzho

[Lachdonin]

For a start, when you say there are a lot of 'mights', are you implying that you can easily predict the future? I don't think so. The future will always have a lot of mights, regardless of the outcome of Skyrim's civil war.

 

Um... Did i state, through implication or otherwise, that i knew the future? No. I even went so far as to indicate that there were also 'mights' when looking at the Empire. My point one in referance to Occum's Razor. The option which requires the least number of asumptions is usually the correct one. In this case, the choice with the fewest number of 'mights' required to acheive the desired outcome (in this case the defeat of the Thalmor) is the most reliable. If you you disgard that basic reasoning you may as well just rely on the Akiviri or the Sload to come up and take out the Thalmor for you.

 

Secondly, yes Hammerfell originally fought the Dominion with a large number of legionaries, but after twenty years of independence, they would have rebuilt their own armies (keeping in mind, Redguard culture demands all male youth to join the army, or die trying). And when you think about it, how many Legionaries could have been spared. For Decianus' armies to have had any success in Cyrodiil, they would have needed a large number of soldiers.

 

First, Decianus. If we assume an Imperial Legion is roughly aproximating a Roman Legion, we can assume 5-6 thousand Legionaries, plus about 4000 auxilaries (cavalry, archers, etc). We are told that the Legionaries left behind formed the core of Hammerfells army in the continueing war against the Domminion (and that they took the brunt of the casualties). As such, Decianus would have had to have dissmissed a sizeable number of troops, though i agree that he had to maintain a certian functionality of his own force. That said, he was a pittance of the contribution to the Battle of the Red Ring, commanding only a single legion, so success was hardly resting on his shoulders. I'd be surprised if he dissmissed more than a thrid of his legion, and suspect it to be considerably less, probably a fifth. Still, that would ammount to 2000 men from a full legion.

 

Thirdly, it was the War of Succession when the Jarls fought amongst themselves. That ended several eras ago. Yes, Skyrim was never as strong as she was before, but Ulfric would would make Skyrim considerably more stable. And as it is an established fact that Ulfric is power hungry (I'm not going to contest). This would be proof that he would rebuild Skyrim, as he would assert his own power over the Jarls (Which either side does anyway) and expand his own strength.

 

The War of Sucession happened in the dull mists of time, and i personally find it hard to beleive that this is what Balgruf is talking about. It is possible, i suppose, but the context in which he makes his statement impllies that conflict between Jarls was a common occurance rather than a one off even that happened thousands of years ago.

 

Fourthly, Tamrielic humans would unite against the Thalmor. Common enemies.

 

History says otherwise. Talos had to subjugate most of the human nations in order to turn them on the first Domminion. Highrock and Skyrim have shown themselves to be more than content to war against eachother even when there are greater threats to deal with. Really, the only instance we have in the history of species uniting against a common enemy is when the Chimer and Dwemer united against the Nords.

 

 

As much as i can see the potential for your proposed outcome, the chances are remote at best. It's only slightly more likely than Vivec popping back into reality and finger-snapping the Thalmor out of existance. It hinges on too many uncertianties which have been shown, historically, to be unlikely. Yes, it COULD happen, and could end up with a bigger payoff in the end, but the Empire is the more reliable bet. Its like betting on a game with 50:1 odds. Yeah, you COULD make a killing, but the chances aren't good.

 

@ Terzho

 

Actually, Valenwood has definately shown in lore that it would rather the Empire. It has been subjected to ethnic clensing by the hands of the Thalmor since they took over, and many Bosmer have fled rather than be executed. The same can be said for the Summerset Isles.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Lachdonin