RighthandofSithis Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 [Then they'd lose Skyrim to the Thalmore, giving the Thalmore one more conquer. It'd only get them closer to taking all of Tamriel. Who and how? Skyrim is on the opposite side of the world to the Summerset Isles http://images.uesp.net/thumb/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg/800px-TamrielMap.jpg It's pretty much impossible for the Aldermeri to attack Skyrim without first taking Cyrodiil or Hammerfell. Not really...just go along the coast of High rock at the top until you reach the docks of Solitude... Anyway, I support the Imperials through and through...When I first started Skyrim I chose the Stormcloaks, one because they wore pants and two because I did some reading prior and discovered the Thalmor beat the Empire into submission...as I kept playing, completed the Stormcloak campaign, disregarded the racism in windhelm and the markarth incident.But when you go to Castle Dour and defeat Tullius, he says that the Empire aren't the bad guys, and that this is exactly what the Thalmor wanted...It suddenly didnt feel right being a Stormcloak, Tullius was right...The Empire arent the bad guys, They're just stuck in a very difficult situation and are trying their hardest to get out of it, plus the Dossier you read on Ulfric by the Thalmor in their embassy, tells us the Thalmor consider him a dormant intelligence asset. The Dossier also says the Thalmor were going to intervene in Ulfrics Execution at Helgen, that's why they were there!explain how they don't put Ulfric's head on the block first...he's the most dangerous one there.In my opinion if there was no dragon, The Thalmor would have escorted Ulfric away and said they were going execute him for heresy...but what they would have done, was let Ulfric go...Why? because like the Dossier says...he's an asset... And dont give me the, "If Ulfric wins he'll kick out the Thalmor from Skyrim"...yes I agree, and I'll applaud him for getting rid of as many Thalmor as possible,but all that will do is piss them off, the Thalmor consider a Stormcloak Victory bad yes, only because it means they will have to spend resources invading Skyrim themselves and lets face it...they would kill or enslave every human in Skyrim if that happened... The Imperials have a plan...even in the Dark Brotherhood quests, The Emperor lets you kill him...I think its because he knows its time for Tamriel to have a new Emperor...someone who will stand up to the Thalmor...someone like, The Dragonborne Firstly, if the Dominion attempted to reach Skyrim through High Rock, they would have to invade High Rock. The Bretons themselves would be able to turn back the Thalmor (Camoran Usurper). And the Imperial Garrisons. If they attacked High Rock, they would either invade the Empire (an act of war) or the Garrisons would assist the Bretons (I'd imagine High Rock would leave rather peacefully, simply returning to their feudalism. And I don't think the Imperial Garrisons would just be able to go back home, and many of them would be native to High Rock) Secondly, Ulfric is seen as an asset by the Thalmor, and he may have had contact with them (I know he was interrogated). But firstly, he has certainly dropped all contact after Markarth. And yes, they see him harming the Empire as a great thing. Skyrim leaving the Empire would be perfect for them. But that does not mean they would just create a new enemy (as my previous posts show, likely of equal or greater strength). Osama Bin-Laden, Saddam Hussein, Ho Chi Minh are all people the US had supported. They even supported fascism as a bulwark against communism. Thirdly, an invasion into Skyrim itself would be incredibly difficult. The Thalmor would have to maintain supply lines across a hostile continent, and their soldiers would have to survive through a hostile environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) And how about a discussion about the sources from this conflict. The book 'The Bear of Markarth' was written by an Imperial Scholar, who would have had Imperial interests in mind and was likely biased. And Galmar in 'Season Unending' contradicts this, and states the Imperials had committed their own massacre (but this is not specified) Indeed, he would be biased as well. None deny Ulfric was imprisoned. In fact, most agree he was (but he may have falsely been imprisoned, and I believe he was not imprisoned for any war crimes, but for Talos Worship etc.) The Thalmor documents on Ulfric would be reliable for his history with the Thalmor, but they say he does not have any support for the Thalmor. This is corroborated by his comments during 'Season Unending'. They do provide evidence that he was broken by the Thalmor.By the term 'asset' I do not believe he was used as an informant, but quotes "Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen." and "The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim", imply to me that he was seen as a weapon to be used against the Empire, (and he may, or may not have been aware of this) 'Nords Arise!' is clearly a biased piece of Propaganda used to portray the Empire as the enemy and to make Ulfric look like a great hero. It can be very useful to establish Stormcloak ideologies, but has little use otherwise. Edited February 16, 2012 by RighthandofSithis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun188 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 [Then they'd lose Skyrim to the Thalmore, giving the Thalmore one more conquer. It'd only get them closer to taking all of Tamriel. Who and how? Skyrim is on the opposite side of the world to the Summerset Isles http://images.uesp.net/thumb/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg/800px-TamrielMap.jpg It's pretty much impossible for the Aldermeri to attack Skyrim without first taking Cyrodiil or Hammerfell. Not really...just go along the coast of High rock at the top until you reach the docks of Solitude... Anyway, I support the Imperials through and through...When I first started Skyrim I chose the Stormcloaks, one because they wore pants and two because I did some reading prior and discovered the Thalmor beat the Empire into submission...as I kept playing, completed the Stormcloak campaign, disregarded the racism in windhelm and the markarth incident.But when you go to Castle Dour and defeat Tullius, he says that the Empire aren't the bad guys, and that this is exactly what the Thalmor wanted...It suddenly didnt feel right being a Stormcloak, Tullius was right...The Empire arent the bad guys, They're just stuck in a very difficult situation and are trying their hardest to get out of it, plus the Dossier you read on Ulfric by the Thalmor in their embassy, tells us the Thalmor consider him a dormant intelligence asset. The Dossier also says the Thalmor were going to intervene in Ulfrics Execution at Helgen, that's why they were there!explain how they don't put Ulfric's head on the block first...he's the most dangerous one there.In my opinion if there was no dragon, The Thalmor would have escorted Ulfric away and said they were going execute him for heresy...but what they would have done, was let Ulfric go...Why? because like the Dossier says...he's an asset... And dont give me the, "If Ulfric wins he'll kick out the Thalmor from Skyrim"...yes I agree, and I'll applaud him for getting rid of as many Thalmor as possible,but all that will do is piss them off, the Thalmor consider a Stormcloak Victory bad yes, only because it means they will have to spend resources invading Skyrim themselves and lets face it...they would kill or enslave every human in Skyrim if that happened... The Imperials have a plan...even in the Dark Brotherhood quests, The Emperor lets you kill him...I think its because he knows its time for Tamriel to have a new Emperor...someone who will stand up to the Thalmor...someone like, The DragonborneThe thing you said about the Thalmor taking Ulfric away makes so much sense. The Thalmor must told Tullius in that meeting just before the execution that they wanted to execute Ulfric themselves at the end. Tullius would have put up a fight but there's nothing he could do, angering the Thalmor is not a good idea. That's why Ulfric wasn't executed first, it all makes sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midtek Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you think Skyrim is the personalization of Nord itself, Empire tumbling is a great opportunity for segregation. Stormcloaks commonly say that Empire is not bad; they are just too weak to lose the war and let Talos forbidden. There's no need to be the side of weakling. Nord should stand by himself. If you think Skyrim has been the part of Empire long enough, stabbing backside because Empire got infirm is too base even to Nord's tradition. Empire had actually been lazy in busting Talos until Stormcloak emerged and Thalmor found it's a crack spot to crumble Empire and pressured it. No citizen should not accord to his country's ruination. There's no need to be clever with abacus for joining the winning side. Regardless of the winning rate, we support the cause we think it's right.In this case, which is your loyalty within. Empire? or local Nord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you think Skyrim has been the part of Empire long enough, stabbing backside because Empire got infirm is too base even to Nord's tradition. Actually, infighting and backstabbing isn't that off for the traditional Nord. Balgruf himself says that, once upon a time, the Jarls regularly fought amongst themselves, though i doubt it rarely got to the point of full blown civil was as it did during the War of Succession. There's also mentions of poison tasters, attempted assinations, covert alliances and such as being regular affairs in Skyrim politics. They seem very content, if not prone, to stab people in the back to suit their wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midtek Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Actually, infighting and backstabbing isn't that off for the traditional Nord. Balgruf himself says that, once upon a time, the Jarls regularly fought amongst themselves, though i doubt it rarely got to the point of full blown civil was as it did during the War of Succession. There's also mentions of poison tasters, attempted assinations, covert alliances and such as being regular affairs in Skyrim politics. They seem very content, if not prone, to stab people in the back to suit their wants.Bloodsucking politicians do not represent the way of people. Such things are just struggling for power all histories go. As long as those actions are counted as disgrace in folks, it cannot be generalized. But then, the way of people is the problem that is. Killing a leader by unilateral duel must be considered as barbarism in civil places. A murder.But if local folks think it's the true way of Nord; it makes sense they want to liberate themselves from weakened Empire. Maybe we are the witness of the fall of Roman Empire. We don't argue Roman collapse and German inflow were fair or not. I have had enough good feeling about Empire since Oblivion, so I want to see the nation rise strong again. Edited February 17, 2012 by midtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sativarg2 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) To be or not to be... If Talos is a false God why do his shrines work so well?I have spared a dragons life and in return that dragon fights by my side.I loath Thalmor... I don't trust imperialists who tend to say... John Atkinson Hobson[/b] (6 July 1858 – 1 April 1940)It is desirable that the earth should be peopled, governed, and developed, as far as possible, by the races which can do this work best, i.e. by the races of highest 'social efficiency'.So I joined the Stormcloaks. Although, seeing Ulfric's knees shaking as he stood at the map table had me a bit worried. It was, perhaps, a glitch in the software. But maybe not. I had just brought back the message from the Jarl of Whiterun... It would have been quite realistic for any man to shake a bit, given the weight of his next move. At each major battle I called the Dragon Odahviing to my side. It seemed fitting that a dragon be present at the routing of the empire. I hope this post is not a spoiler and or spam. If it is, feel free to delete it at any time. Edited February 17, 2012 by Apprentice Harper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apecallum Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm more or less undecided on which faction is in the right morally, but it seems apparent that the most important consideration to make when picking sides is which faction has a better chance at defeating the Thalmor and I think I'm throwing in with the Stormcloaks on that one. Yes the Empire has a significant manpower and monetary advantage over the Stormcloaks, but all great empires must fall and I think it's pretty obvious that the Empire in its current form is soon to face irreversible collapse. It's simply run out of momentum, and if real world precedent is anything to go by its highly unlikely it will ever recover. It's time for a fresh, new order to arise that is efficient and coordinated and perhaps an independent Skyrim fits that model. Putting Ulfric's brutality and greed for power aside, it seems like he's got his s*** together and commands a great deal of authority and loyalty over his people, opposed to the Empire which just seems like an impotent bureaucratic mess. I think a strong autocratic model of government is better suited to waging war than an oligarchic one, vested interests etc. Perhaps Skyrim could eventually be in a position to annex Cyrodil and take the fight directly to the Thalmor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 If Talos is a false God why do his shrines work so well? Further evidence that Talos is a god come from Knights of the Nine. The player is granted the ability to destroy Umaril's soul with the blessing of Talos. However, the dropping of Talos as a god is relatively logical. Reman was a god to the Second Empire, but he is no longer worshiped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sativarg2 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) If Talos is a false God why do his shrines work so well? Further evidence that Talos is a god come from Knights of the Nine. The player is granted the ability to destroy Umaril's soul with the blessing of Talos. However, the dropping of Talos as a god is relatively logical. Reman was a god to the Second Empire, but he is no longer worshiped.I wonder if the Thalmor had a say in that desecration as well. The one way to be sure to divide the north in three directions was to use religion as a wedge. It is an effective strategy here in Earth. A good writer will use reality to flesh out fantasy.. So who would I have been helping in Earth history then? Me against who... With whom'...? Bah LOL who cares? I got to fight with a dragon beside me against "the Man!... I'm happy. But isn't it interesting that not one Thalmor had the nerve to stop me. Probably because, just like Ulfric, I was being a tool.LOL Just like all Of Uss... Edited February 17, 2012 by Apprentice Harper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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