Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

I'm a firm believer that Tamriel would be stronger in the end if the Stormcloaks won and united Skyrim free of Imperial influence - instead of maintaining the same sad state of business as usual affairs of the Empire. Skyrim and Hammerfell could then form an alliance and create a military centered coalition. Sorry Cyrodill, we tried it your way and the Empire disintegrated because of it - you don't stab your allies in the back. You want to come along fine, but we are doing things differently from now on.

 

When you consider 2/3rds of the Legions in the Great War were from those two territories anyway, it only makes sense that shift in power takes place.

 

They'd need a galvanizing figure to make that happen, and the early returns seem to suggest the Dragonborn would probably have to be that figure.

 

Why leave Cyrodiil out of it?

 

Bruma is a strategic position, Skyrim should at least take that. Perhaps also Cheydinhal.

 

That said, yes, the southern counties are stuffed.

[modder3434]

At the time of the Great War that number had been reduced to 12, 4 from

Cyrodil, 4 from Skyrim, 4 from Hammerfell. Numbered from I to XII in

that order. 1-4 being from Cyrodil, 4-8 from Skyrim 8-12 from

Hammerfell.

 

i belive you mean Legions 1-3 were from the heartland, 4-8 were from skyrim, and 9-12 from Hammerfell

[kradus]

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

[RighthandofSithis]

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

 

I thought France and Britain became stonger after they left the Roman Empire? I mean, the Franks did have to save Rome's hide on more than one occasion.

 

The Empire is at a point of no return, from my analysis. Saying it will come back and save the day is very optimistic thinking. It has been collapsing for 200 years, and is continueing to do so (at an accellerated rate, look at Skyrim and Cyrodiil, hammerfell left, Morrowind is crap, leaving High Rock as perhaps the only peacful province).

[kradus]

France and Britain where pillaged by rome's enemies, because they where on their own.

In order to beat the Thalmor you need unity, and that's what an empire is, an alliance with unified leadership. If the empire is weak, why would you think anything else comprised of less its territories would do a better job? You need it to survive Thalmor onslaught, that's one of the reasons Talos created it.

Edited February 14, 2013 by kradus

[Kayyyleb]

 

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

 

I thought France and Britain became stonger after they left the Roman Empire? I mean, the Franks did have to save Rome's hide on more than one occasion.

 

The Empire is at a point of no return, from my analysis. Saying it will come back and save the day is very optimistic thinking. It has been collapsing for 200 years, and is continueing to do so (at an accellerated rate, look at Skyrim and Cyrodiil, hammerfell left, Morrowind is crap, leaving High Rock as perhaps the only peacful province).

Europe wasn't a picnic after the Roman Empire by any stretch of the imagination. The anarchy left behind a vulnerability to raids and invasions from barbaric native tribes.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

I thought France and Britain became stonger after they left the Roman Empire? I mean, the Franks did have to save Rome's hide on more than one occasion.

 

The Empire is at a point of no return, from my analysis. Saying it will come back and save the day is very optimistic thinking. It has been collapsing for 200 years, and is continueing to do so (at an accellerated rate, look at Skyrim and Cyrodiil, hammerfell left, Morrowind is crap, leaving High Rock as perhaps the only peacful province).

Europe wasn't a picnic after the Roman Empire by any stretch of the imagination. The anarchy left behind a vulnerability to raids and invasions from barbaric native tribes.

 

So Skyrim should simply collapse with the Empire?

 

The empire is currently going down the gargler. Gang Wars in Cyrodiil, Civil War in Skyrim, severe pirate raids in High Rock, and a very hostile Morrowind (albeit, destroyed), not only make reconstruction near impossible, but they signify an Empire well past its height, and in decline.

 

And lets not forget that the Imperial treasury had been spent following the Great War (evident in the Markarth Incident, can't pay mercenaries, offer them religious freedom [sounds similar to the old Roman tactic of offering land]), and that the Thalmor have inquisitors inside the Empire. What if a great military leader is framed for Talos worship? Look at the potential for corruption.

 

So, in general, should Skyrim remain with the Empire? When the Empire is so poised to collapse, or kneel completly to the Thalmor. In the worst case scenario, independant Skyrim could offer at least some resistance. In the best case scenario (which is not so optimistic), a Skyrim-Hammerfell pact could push the Thalmor into a tight corner.

 

EDIT: I've just found this posted on another threadd, its pretty much my argument: http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/1851c5/how_do_you_figure_the_civil_war_ends_canonically/c8bo5yp

Edited February 15, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

I thought France and Britain became stonger after they left the Roman Empire? I mean, the Franks did have to save Rome's hide on more than one occasion.

 

The Empire is at a point of no return, from my analysis. Saying it will come back and save the day is very optimistic thinking. It has been collapsing for 200 years, and is continueing to do so (at an accellerated rate, look at Skyrim and Cyrodiil, hammerfell left, Morrowind is crap, leaving High Rock as perhaps the only peacful province).

Europe wasn't a picnic after the Roman Empire by any stretch of the imagination. The anarchy left behind a vulnerability to raids and invasions from barbaric native tribes.

So Skyrim should simply collapse with the Empire?

 

The empire is currently going down the gargler. Gang Wars in Cyrodiil, Civil War in Skyrim, severe pirate raids in High Rock, and a very hostile Morrowind (albeit, destroyed), not only make reconstruction near impossible, but they signify an Empire well past its height, and in decline.

 

And lets not forget that the Imperial treasury had been spent following the Great War (evident in the Markarth Incident, can't pay mercenaries, offer them religious freedom [sounds similar to the old Roman tactic of offering land]), and that the Thalmor have inquisitors inside the Empire. What if a great military leader is framed for Talos worship? Look at the potential for corruption.

 

So, in general, should Skyrim remain with the Empire? When the Empire is so poised to collapse, or kneel completly to the Thalmor. In the worst case scenario, independant Skyrim could offer at least some resistance. In the best case scenario (which is not so optimistic), a Skyrim-Hammerfell pact could push the Thalmor into a tight corner.

 

There is absolutely no evidence to support the repeated claim that Skyrim/Hammerfell can defeat the Thalmor on their own. If anything, evidence is to the contrary. The first Great War was against a combined Imperial Legion made of Nords, Redguards and Imperials and they managed a stalemate. Now you want to pretend that Skyrim with some sort of half-strength Hammerfell ally is gonna take on the Thalmor and win while leaving Cyrodiil to the Thalmor? This is so militarily absurd in so many ways it's not even worth mentioning.

 

The Imperials have no intention of giving in to the Thalmor a second time and they haven't lost their will to fight by any means. During the events of Skyrim the Empire is carefully guarding the border with the Thalmor preparing for the next war. Instead of working with the Empire to crush the Thalmor, Hammerfell abandons ship and decides to fend for itself (which isn't going well for them) while Skyrim is straight up stabbing the Empire in the back. Could you really look me in the eye and tell me that not EXACTLY what the Thalmor want to happen? Divide and conquer is very effective. And those dumb Nords are falling for the Thalmor's plan hook, line and sinker.

 

Sure the Empire's infrastructure is weak and falling apart, but the Legion still represents a key piece on the chessboard for defeating the Thalmor. One that if discarded will almost certainly end in an easy Thalmor victory.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

I thought France and Britain became stonger after they left the Roman Empire? I mean, the Franks did have to save Rome's hide on more than one occasion.

 

The Empire is at a point of no return, from my analysis. Saying it will come back and save the day is very optimistic thinking. It has been collapsing for 200 years, and is continueing to do so (at an accellerated rate, look at Skyrim and Cyrodiil, hammerfell left, Morrowind is crap, leaving High Rock as perhaps the only peacful province).

Europe wasn't a picnic after the Roman Empire by any stretch of the imagination. The anarchy left behind a vulnerability to raids and invasions from barbaric native tribes.

So Skyrim should simply collapse with the Empire?

 

The empire is currently going down the gargler. Gang Wars in Cyrodiil, Civil War in Skyrim, severe pirate raids in High Rock, and a very hostile Morrowind (albeit, destroyed), not only make reconstruction near impossible, but they signify an Empire well past its height, and in decline.

 

And lets not forget that the Imperial treasury had been spent following the Great War (evident in the Markarth Incident, can't pay mercenaries, offer them religious freedom [sounds similar to the old Roman tactic of offering land]), and that the Thalmor have inquisitors inside the Empire. What if a great military leader is framed for Talos worship? Look at the potential for corruption.

 

So, in general, should Skyrim remain with the Empire? When the Empire is so poised to collapse, or kneel completly to the Thalmor. In the worst case scenario, independant Skyrim could offer at least some resistance. In the best case scenario (which is not so optimistic), a Skyrim-Hammerfell pact could push the Thalmor into a tight corner.

 

There is absolutely no evidence to support the repeated claim that Skyrim/Hammerfell can defeat the Thalmor on their own. If anything, evidence is to the contrary. The first Great War was against a combined Imperial Legion made of Nords, Redguards and Imperials and they managed a stalemate. Now you want to pretend that Skyrim with some sort of half-strength Hammerfell ally is gonna take on the Thalmor and win while leaving Cyrodiil to the Thalmor? This is so militarily absurd in so many ways it's not even worth mentioning.

 

The Imperials have no intention of giving in to the Thalmor a second time and they haven't lost their will to fight by any means. During the events of Skyrim the Empire is carefully guarding the border with the Thalmor preparing for the next war. Instead of working with the Empire to crush the Thalmor, Hammerfell abandons ship and decides to fend for itself (which isn't going well for them) while Skyrim is straight up stabbing the Empire in the back. Could you really look me in the eye and tell me that not EXACTLY what the Thalmor want to happen? Divide and conquer is very effective. And those dumb Nords are falling for the Thalmor's plan hook, line and sinker.

 

Sure the Empire's infrastructure is weak and falling apart, but the Legion still represents a key piece on the chessboard for defeating the Thalmor. One that if discarded will almost certainly end in an easy Thalmor victory.

 

The first Great War was against a weakening and dying Empire, with obviously incompetent leadership. Also, after 25 years, and no evidence of internal conflict (knowing that the Corowns were in the perfect position to assert their traditional dominance), one could make the educated assumption that Hammerfell, with a new generation (perhaps also a high growth rate. Tragedies encourage growth in population) would have been able to rebuild relativly well. Not to mention, trying the same thing and expective different results is the definition of insanity (particularly when the second time, you weaken the Empire signficantly).

 

Also, if we are talking about tactics, look at the battlefield in a Skyrim-Hammerfell scenario. It looks to me that, based on Tamriel's geography, the Aldmeri would be backed into a corner (with Skyrim in the north, and HAmmerfell in the west, their only option would be retreat, or fight a war in a boxed in position [Cannae comes to mind]). Also, I think you are underestimating Skyrim's natural defensability. Treacherous mountain passes, hostile enviroment, hardy and warlike people etc etc.

 

I have still not seen a reliable account for the numbers of the legion. Tullius may say the Empire is preparing for a war, but when you look at the troubles it has faced, can we be sure it effectivly has? Also, the DOminion admits it must avoid a Stormcloak victory, I mean, didn't the US want Osama Bin Laden to fight the soviets?

 

Also, are you implying that a people should be forced to carry the burdens of a dying Empire?

 

The Legion may be an effective fighting fore, but without an Economy, it will collapse with the Empire.

 

EDIT: Just because I want to say it, usually you don't cure a disease by cutting off a limb, but the Empire seems to have a serious case of gangrene :biggrin: .

Edited February 16, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

I thought France and Britain became stonger after they left the Roman Empire? I mean, the Franks did have to save Rome's hide on more than one occasion.

 

The Empire is at a point of no return, from my analysis. Saying it will come back and save the day is very optimistic thinking. It has been collapsing for 200 years, and is continueing to do so (at an accellerated rate, look at Skyrim and Cyrodiil, hammerfell left, Morrowind is crap, leaving High Rock as perhaps the only peacful province).

Europe wasn't a picnic after the Roman Empire by any stretch of the imagination. The anarchy left behind a vulnerability to raids and invasions from barbaric native tribes.

So Skyrim should simply collapse with the Empire?

 

The empire is currently going down the gargler. Gang Wars in Cyrodiil, Civil War in Skyrim, severe pirate raids in High Rock, and a very hostile Morrowind (albeit, destroyed), not only make reconstruction near impossible, but they signify an Empire well past its height, and in decline.

 

And lets not forget that the Imperial treasury had been spent following the Great War (evident in the Markarth Incident, can't pay mercenaries, offer them religious freedom [sounds similar to the old Roman tactic of offering land]), and that the Thalmor have inquisitors inside the Empire. What if a great military leader is framed for Talos worship? Look at the potential for corruption.

 

So, in general, should Skyrim remain with the Empire? When the Empire is so poised to collapse, or kneel completly to the Thalmor. In the worst case scenario, independant Skyrim could offer at least some resistance. In the best case scenario (which is not so optimistic), a Skyrim-Hammerfell pact could push the Thalmor into a tight corner.

 

There is absolutely no evidence to support the repeated claim that Skyrim/Hammerfell can defeat the Thalmor on their own. If anything, evidence is to the contrary. The first Great War was against a combined Imperial Legion made of Nords, Redguards and Imperials and they managed a stalemate. Now you want to pretend that Skyrim with some sort of half-strength Hammerfell ally is gonna take on the Thalmor and win while leaving Cyrodiil to the Thalmor? This is so militarily absurd in so many ways it's not even worth mentioning.

 

The Imperials have no intention of giving in to the Thalmor a second time and they haven't lost their will to fight by any means. During the events of Skyrim the Empire is carefully guarding the border with the Thalmor preparing for the next war. Instead of working with the Empire to crush the Thalmor, Hammerfell abandons ship and decides to fend for itself (which isn't going well for them) while Skyrim is straight up stabbing the Empire in the back. Could you really look me in the eye and tell me that not EXACTLY what the Thalmor want to happen? Divide and conquer is very effective. And those dumb Nords are falling for the Thalmor's plan hook, line and sinker.

 

Sure the Empire's infrastructure is weak and falling apart, but the Legion still represents a key piece on the chessboard for defeating the Thalmor. One that if discarded will almost certainly end in an easy Thalmor victory.

 

The first Great War was against a weakening and dying Empire, with obviously incompetent leadership. Also, after 25 years, and no evidence of internal conflict (knowing that the Corowns were in the perfect position to assert their traditional dominance), one could make the educated assumption that Hammerfell, with a new generation (perhaps also a high growth rate. Tragedies encourage growth in population) would have been able to rebuild relativly well. Not to mention, trying the same thing and expective different results is the definition of insanity (particularly when the second time, you weaken the Empire signficantly).

 

Also, if we are talking about tactics, look at the battlefield in a Skyrim-Hammerfell scenario. It looks to me that, based on Tamriel's geography, the Aldmeri would be backed into a corner (with Skyrim in the north, and HAmmerfell in the west, their only option would be retreat, or fight a war in a boxed in position [Cannae comes to mind]). Also, I think you are underestimating Skyrim's natural defensability. Treacherous mountain passes, hostile enviroment, hardy and warlike people etc etc.

 

I have still not seen a reliable account for the numbers of the legion. Tullius may say the Empire is preparing for a war, but when you look at the troubles it has faced, can we be sure it effectivly has? Also, the DOminion admits it must avoid a Stormcloak victory, I mean, didn't the US want Osama Bin Laden to fight the soviets?

 

Also, are you implying that a people should be forced to carry the burdens of a dying Empire?

 

The Legion may be an effective fighting fore, but without an Economy, it will collapse with the Empire.

I like how you can go from bashing the Empire for a weak economy but somehow claim Hammerfell can support a war against the Thalmor with half its territory occupied and in a severely weakened condition. You are committing a rather blatant double standard when you claim the Empire can't fight off the Thalmor but an even weaker Hammerfell can. Geography is going to help the Thalmor even more without the Empire than with it and how you can't see this I can't fathom. They get to fight smaller scale more focused wars in far better defensive positions with Cyrodiil under their control. The Thalmor can bottle up the Nords in their own mountain passes and focus the majority of their army on crushing whatever is left of Hammerfell then set their sights on Skyrim bring their full strength to bear. Skyrim vs the Thalmor with the resources from 2/3 of Tamriel will take nothing short of an utter miracle to save Skyrim.

 

While the Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks to ultimately win the war (in the interest of enforcing the Concordat most likely) they make no secret that they want the war to drag on for years so that both Skyrim and the Empire are weakened significantly so they can be completely uncontested in dominating all Tamriel. Hammerfell will never defeat the Thalmor on their own. But Skyrim will never defeat the Thalmor on their own either. Three provinces against one is extremely poor odds.

 

Throwing out the Empire is a fatal mistake. It's not a matter of carrying the burdens of the Empire, it's a matter of being strategically realistic instead of falsely optimistic. If Skyrim wants to secede, then they can pick a better time than killing potential allies right when they will need them most. The Stormcloak rebellion is ill-conceived and short-sighted.