Imperial VS Stormcloak

[kradus]

Ouch

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The fact is that the Nords are being oppressed and its wrong.

 

The AD had the right to be in Skyrim or any other part of the Empire for basically whatever they want because the Empire would turn a blind eye.

 

That right there is reason enough to stand up and say "No, we wont be treated like this. Even if we lose, we decide our fate, not the Empire. Not the Elves but us. Us as free men and woman. We will stand free for better or worse. Like it or not."

 

But no. You pro-imperials wont even own up to the fact that your allowing the Thalmor to kill as they please.

 

Worshiping a god in secret isnt being free. Heimskr in Whiterun is jailed by the Imperials constantly, albeit he is somewhat annoying but he truly believes that Talos should be worshiped openly.

 

Where's your proof of this so called build up in Cyrodiil? I dont find it anywhere.

 

I have proof of the heavy taxation. Its mentioned several times by various characters. Ulfric is one of them.

 

On the murder of the High King, Ulfric in Nordic tradition legally killed him. Your right when you say it was against Imperial law. But frankly I think that all these Imperial laws are starting to piss the Nords off.

 

The Imperials dont respect the Nord ways. Why should the Nords respect Imperial ways. Look what good its done. Nothing.

 

Skyrim doesnt just rely on Cyrodiil for food. Have you ever visited Rorikstead? Dont even try to say "One farm isnt enough to supply Skyrim." Did you play Oblivion? If you did then you know that there were only like 5 farms in the game. All of Cyrodiil.

 

Ulfric may have caused more attention being directed at Skyrim but in truth it obviously needs to be reexamined.

 

The Nords deserve to rule themselves.

 

I want you to admit "The Nords dont deserve to be free, they will do as the Empire says or die. If they try to Rebel again we will kill them again."

 

Because thats what your siding with if you side with the Empire.

 

The Nords saved the Empire and now its turned its back on them. As a people. Balgruuf kinda saw it. Ulfric sees it. I see it. But your to blinded by your Imperial love that you cant see it.

 

Without leadership the Empire will fall. It loses its leadership via assassination and will now be in a power struggle. Thats IS OBVIOUS. The Legion doesnt just get to act on its own. It has to follow whoever is in charge and right now thats no one.

 

The Emperor is dead. The Empire died when it signed the WGC.

 

I see no reason why the Empire should live on. If it occupies Skyrim, Skyrim will only be brought down with it. The Empire doesnt have the will to fight. The Nords do however. Some in the Empire may, like Rikke but people like Tullius leading will only lead to its eventual and, soon to be, demise.

 

Tullius surrenders right before Ulfric kills him. Or the Dragonborn.

 

Hadvar is a good man but he's alone in his thinking as far as Imperials go.

 

Stormcloak Soldier: "I long to be out there, with my brothers, waging war against the Empire."

 

Imperial Soldier: "I cant wait to go back home."

 

Imperials are weak and dying. There a dead body fallen on top of Skyrim. Now the Nords are pushing it off.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[imperistan]

To not be able to express your beliefs openly and without fear of being dragged away in the night is the very definition of oppression. It doesn't matter if Ulfric caused the crack downs, because the fact that any Nord coudln't go out in public and exclaim to all that he believes, even if he could still do so in his own home, makes that Nord oppressed. Just because a bunch of know-nothing peasants don't understand that they're being oppressed doesn't stop them from being so.

 

Any real life implementation of what the Empire did would be met with outrage by thousands if not millions of people.

 

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Hammerfel barely had an army, had already lost influence over half of the entire province, and were right next to Alinor. They also had nowhere to retreat to. That they were able to stalemate the Dominion at all, even despite the blow struck during the War of the Red Ring, speaks volumes about what Hammerfel was capable of, and indeed, what Alinor was capable of. They fought that war for 5 years. Alinor had all the power to resupply and reinforce its armies. Hammerfel had nothing to draw reinforcements or supplies from. Under those conditions, a consistent stalemate of 5 years is amazing.

 

Unless one side is inherently weaker than the other, that is.

 

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It isn't hard to crush a rebellion that barely had much of a start. And more than that, it was prophecy that the war should continue. Alduin could not have fulfilled his destiny without the Civil War continuing as it did. So no matter how you spin it, the rebellion would only ever be able to be down in an actual war, rather than at the end of a string of minor battles. Whether or not you support them being put down is the debate, and whether or not a post Rebel victory would be sustainable.

 

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Can't be much of a military build up if the Thalmor are ignoring it. (And don't give this crap that its secret. With the Thalmor being as ingrained into the Empire as they are, it would be a total disservice to suggest they wouldn't notice military activity along their borders. Hell, that they wouldn't notice ANY activity at all along their borders, particularly when its likely they're doing the same damn thing anyway)

 

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Nice to see that more people are pretending that the Dominion would ever reach Skyrim, very much less penetrate it. Fact of the matter is that, even despite how easily Cyrodiil would fall to them, by the time the Dominion would be able to sustain the infrastructure necessary to not only invade Skyrim, but actually defend the land they would acquire in Cyrodiil, Skyrim will already be marching south into Cyrodiil.

 

You can't invade a country by just ignoring the entire province between you and it. It won't work and you'll put more effort into sustaining the ability to invade than that of the actual invasion. And thats when you completely ignore the geographical problems that would completely throw logistics into a grinder.

 

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The problem was that anyone had to suffer at all for doing nothing inherently wrong. One person or a thousand, its still completely wrong.

 

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Its a war between the Nords and the Empire. Not between Skyrim and the Empire. Big difference. The banning of Talos is a Nord concern.

 

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The Dunmer aren't Ulfric's people. The Grey Quarter isn't even a part of Windhelm anymore, nor was it ever since it was given to the Dunmer as refuge. Ulfric's only obligation to them is their protection from external threats, which he has kept up. All internal problems are up to the Dunmer to solve for themselves.

 

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No one should be forced to ignore or hide their beliefs. EVER. To say they should just because its going to cause problems is just disgusting. Disputing a problem like that would always cause more strife, but that isn't justification to just let it go.

 

That makes you a slave.

 

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Support for Ulfric as King is irrelevant. Let the people decide who gets to be king, or have Ulfric carve his way to the throne. It doesn't matter. There are bigger issues at stake than who gets to sit in some stupid chair, issues that will eclipse and obscure who gets to sit on the throne.

 

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Saying that is like saying that anything that isn't directly and openly helping the Empire in its endeavors makes them a pawn of the Thalmor. Problem is, that logic is absolutely ludicrous. Just because Ulfric is benefiting the Dominion with this war doesn't make the war a bad thing.

 

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I also like how people continually use the argument that "Hurr they suppressed the Dominion until Ulfric came along", but then never seem to realize that if the Empire actually had that ability, then some insignificant asswipe from Windhelm wasn't going to stop them from doing it.

 

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Lastly, I'd just like to point out that even Talos himself agrees that the Empire is ready to die and that something new must take its place. So, not only is the war even more justified already, but it also destroys the entire argument that the Stormcloaks are acting against Talos by fighting the Empire.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Imperistan, ^ was awesome. All I have to say is thanks for having my back. Same with RighthandofSithis.

[imperistan]

Nothing can do better for the Stormcrown than a cloak that will keep him warm in a cold and hostile world.

 

:cool:

[sajuukkhar9000]

 

 

--When facing an enemy that wants to purge you from existence itself, very slight oppression to by yourself time to not being exterminated is worth it.

--They had the right, but no the power to enforce it, there's a large difference between the two.

--Sure, but if it means causing the permanent extinction of all humans, then one specific group's view on the matter means little.

--They allow it because the only other choice right now is to try to fight a war that they cant win, and the result of losing would be total extermination.

--Heimskr isn't actually jailed ever, nor does he mention being jailed ever.

--

Dovahkiin: "Why won't the Emperor send more reinforcements?"

Tullius: "Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

-Give me lines from someone other then Ulfric

-Nordic tradition does not overrule Imperial law. It may be "tradition" to kill the firstborn children in some backwoods part of some state in America, but that doesn't make doing so any less illegal.

--You are aware that Oblivion was a game? and thus doesn't properly reflect the total number of farms that are in Cyrodiil? Also.

Dovahkiin: "Why didn't Torygg ever declare independence?"

Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people."

--Sure, after the genocidal man hating elves who seek to purge humanity from time itself are dealt with.

--Possibly, but who rules is determined by who can, not who should.

--Why would I admit something as untrue as that? and no, that's not who I am siding with when I side with The Empire

--The nords saved the Empire? how exactly did they do that? because all the Empire did was with its own forces, which means the Empire saved itself.

--Actually, the Legion follows the decisions of the Elder Counsel, who rule in times when The Emperor is absent, which would be right now. cyrodiil does have backup leadership in times like this.

--Because The Empire is the only force ale to even begin to match The Thalmor? that's a pretty good reason right there IMO.

--So a man gives up when he knows he lost instead of pointlessly trying to fight against something he cant change? dear gods! someone actually having an awareness of their situation and admitting it! to horror!

--Not really.

--So an Imperial solider wishing a pointless war would end so he could go back home means the imperials are dying? right....

 

 

 

--People are also stupid, and care more about themselves them the large picture, and if people got pissy over it, when the alternative is total extinction, I would tell them they are idiots as well.

--Hammerfell also had help from the Leigon soldiers the Empire left behind to help them out. On top of that, the AD didn't even really care about Hammerfell anymore, Cyrodiil was their main target. That the single best race of warrior in Tamriel caused an enemy who really didn't even care about them to leave when also getting help from Legion Soldiers that were purposefully left behind, its not hard to see why they won.

--The stormcloaks were around for nearly 30 years. they had PLENTY of time to build themselves up. And that Alduin return BEFORE Ulfric was freed showed that the prophecy had already been fufilled, Ulfric didn't need to live, because the prophecy had already commenced.

--Except the thalmor AREN'T ignoring it, both sides know the other is preparing, they are just smiling at each other while shaking hand while having a knife behind their back to by more time. And really, The Thalmor aren't that ingrained in the Empire.

--If skyrim leaves the Empire, cyrodiil becomes an easy target. Taking cyrodiil without the help of the other nations would be easy. And after taking Cyrodiil, Tamirels breadbasket, The thalmor would be able to cut Skyrim off from one of its main resource hubs, causing massive food shortages, and weakening Skyrim to the point they could capture it.

--The world isn't perfect, people suffer all the time when they really shouldnt, but the world doesnt work on sunshine and rainbows.

--Considering that many of the Nords dont seem to care, its not even the Nords Vs The Empire, its one sect of Nords Vs The Empire, which also has Nords.

--The grey quarter is part of Windhelm, to say otherwise is False, and the sheer fact that they citizens of his city makes them his people. and the Nords gave Solstheim to the Elves to be thier lands, The Grey Quarter was given to them to live in, but nothign was ever said about it being thier own land.

--Again, the world isn't perfect, to try to enforce some "everyone gets everything they want" type system is not possible, as in ineradicably naive. Someone, somewhere, will ALWAYS have their views oppressed in some way, its unavoidable.

--Issues that Ulfric is only making worse by being an idiot and draining both Skyrim's and The Empire's limited resources.

--Except it does does the war a bad thing, because it is exactly what the Thalmor want. Divide and conquer.

--Except Ulfric wast insignificant, he was a major player who started a bunch of really large events.

--The Empire did die, Titus's Empire is a new one, and Talo himself said there needed to be new ideas.

Edited February 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

You are an ass. Ill say it now.

 

Did you hear about the Treaty of Stros M'kai?

 

Hammerfell beat the AD into a stalemate after going through much worse than Skyrim.

 

Skyrim can and will beat the AD.

 

Obviously the Empire cant.

 

The Nords saved the Empire because they made up the legions that did the work to save it.

 

In the lore of Tamriel the Nords have fought with mer more times than you can count. And look both still exist. Albeit many different types of mer but they do.

 

The Nords are hearty and Strong.

 

Its been what? 25 years after the Empire lost and guess what its even weaker. Listen to the dialogue.

 

Stormcloaks: "Why did you join the Stormcloaks?"

Stormcloaks: "My cousin disappeared in the night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. It wasnt long til I found myself under Ulfrics banner.

 

Ulfric: "A great darkness is growing. And soon, we will be called to fight it. On these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, nut it has not defeated Skyrim."

 

Galmar: "Before we can wage war upon our foes we must wage a war upon our lesser selves. Plead to your higher voice. And with it shatter your foes."

 

Heimskr does in fact get jailed. When you liberate Whiterun he admits that life under Stormcloak rule is much better.

 

Jarl Vignar Greymane was in the legion during the great war. He was a leader. Its in the lore.

 

The AD is allowed to undermine the Empire at any time they want. They played their cards right and now they are cleaning up the game. More so letting the empire kill itself instead of wasting their own time. The empire had to immediately start fixing the problems it started when it signed the treaty. It f*#@ed its people.

 

Read "Scourge of the Grey Quarter" And you'll see why the Dunmer are treated like sh*t. They contribute nothing.

 

Im not advocating the racism but they dont deserve sh*t. The ones that do nothing anyway. One Dunmer works and if you look at his house he's f*cking rich.

 

Your still not looking at the picture of whats right vs whats wrong. Your too blind to see it. Admit your faults and I'll respect you. As of now I dont.

 

I'll admit. Ulfric isnt perfect. The Nords will suffer, but they will suffer less with being independent. (At least they can worship the God of War)

 

Change in Rule of an already existing state isnt the change Wulf refers to. Wulf is Tiber Septim's avatar in Morrowind.

 

The Empire needs to die to be reborn.

[imperistan]

To you may be. Not everyone is so unsure of their beliefs that they wont' fight for it, even if their lives are at stake.

 

Don't use your own unwillingness to die for freedom as an argument against those that would.

 

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Yeah, but they just gave that power to the Empire. That is still just as wrong. An external entity has no right to enforce such a thing no more than an internal one would.

 

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Humans survive, but they become oppressed. That is not an equal trade, period. No life is worth living if you are not free.

 

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More ignoring the actual facts and what each entity was actually capable of following the War of the Red Ring (something pro-imperials never even try to integrate into their arguments. They just insist that Dominion > Empire and that the Empire just barely survived, when both sources from during and after the war said that was complete BS).

 

Mede didn't even BOTHER to take in the actual situation in Tamriel before he rushed to hand the Dominion their original demands. Hammerfel was fighting back the invasion army there (Do remember that Hammerfel was the Dominion's original target. The bulk of their initial invasion army was in Hammerfel. Most of what ended up in Cyrodiil was drawn from elsewhere) on its own by the time the War of the Red Ring concluded (Before the Dominion was struck the blow, if you didn't notice). That alone proved that the Dominion wasn't so strong as it seemed to be, and that sustaining the war, if only to establish that it was the Empire's right to dictate the terms of peace (which it completely was) and to act on that right.

 

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That only proves that the Emperor only cares about Cyrodiil, and further, that the leadership of the Empire doesn't even give a flying f*#@ about the people its claims to be protecting.

 

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Thats the problem, and one of the points of the war itself.

 

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When one nation spends hundreds of years relying on the structure of the Empire, it isn't hard to say that to break off would cause problems. That happens when you break dependence, and its a hurdle every true believer in independence accepts.

 

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Funny that that proof also contradicts the constant insistence that Torygg would have declared independence if Ulfric had merely asked him. Too funny how Imperial arguments are always contradictory.

 

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These are not issues that can be solved one after the other. A victorious Empire isn't going to stop insisting their victory, and that means that a free Skyrim is an impossibility if the Empire wins. (Unless it collapses on its own anyway (which it will no matter what happens. Its inevitable) in which case Skyrim is even more f*#@ed than it would be if it had gained its independence earlier, where at least they'd have a chance to develop their independence)

 

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ITT: The Nords weren't a part of the Empire and had no part in the War of the Red Ring nor any other battle that threatened the Septim and Mede Empire's. They also apparently weren't instrumental in the forging of the Septim Empire in the first place.

 

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And the Council is corrupt and weak (as proven by the collapse of the Septim Empire, and the fact that it was a member of that Council that ordered Mede dead).

 

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More ignoring facts and making things up.

 

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No, it shows the Imperials lack conviction. An actual cause. The war to them is just a job. The war to the Stormcloaks is a fight for freedom. That shows that the Empire is dying, when even its soldiers (who are specifically trained and expected to be loyal, mind you. And loyalty isn't merely following orders) aren't enthusiastic to fight for it.

Edited February 17, 2013 by imperistan

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I shall return. I'll be gone for a few hours though. Good luck to all the Stormcloaks while I'm away.

 

You dont need luck though.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[imperistan]

Nice to see that you'll throw the freedom of the people under the bus. Very nice.

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1. I never disputed that there wasn't Legion soldiers in Hammerfel. But that was one Legion that wasn't even at capacity.

2. No, you're wrong. Hammerfel was their main target. It always was, and that's why the actual bulk of the initial invasion bypassed Cyrodiil proper entirely (it didn't even attack Skingrad, Anvil or Kvatch on its way to Hammerfel. It just marched straight through) and went straight to Hammerfel. The only reason there was any fight in Cyrodiil at all was to tie up the Legions and break their response time.

Cyrodiil only became more of a focus because the Legion really got kicked in its ass, which even the Dominion didn't expect to happen.

3. Yes, and thats why it was wrong that Mede went on to do what he did. Because those conditions that provide for Hammerfel's success were not only available to him, but were also starting to literally show. But no, he rushed peace and gave the Dominion everything, all to protect precious Cyrodiil.

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You're also wrong here. The Stormcloaks did not come into existence as a unified army until after Torygg was killed. Yes, the forces were always there, and most of them probably all had the similar mindset of rebelling. But that didn't mean they were sitting there preparing. If the Stormcloaks truly did have 30 years to prepare, then nothing would have stopped their rebellion. Ulfric is no idiot when it comes to war, nor are his generals and lieutenants. If they had 30 years to prepare, they would have given the Imperials a much harder fight then they were able to.

You can argue that Ulfric was stupid not to prepare as some argument against his ability to lead Skyrim after his victory but that's just backtracking and changing the argument so you don't have to concede that you weren't correct.

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1. If Imperial arguments that the Dominion can just walk over Cyrodiil and Skyrim are true, then nothing is stopping them from doing it. Right now. IF they can so easily stomp everyone in the ground, nothing is stopping them from doing so and logically if they could they would.

We all know what the Dominion wants to do. If the Dominion has that kind of power, there's no reason to keep waiting, and frankly, I don't believe the Thalmor are stupid enough not to realize that presuming they do have that kind of strength.

2. If the Thalmor can force themselves on a meeting that they have absolutely zero reason or right to sit in on, shows that they are indeed heavily ingrained into the Empire.

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You're wrong:

This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found.



Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyneare without mercy or honor."



We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of Morrowind in the time following the Red Year.

 

The land is theirs. You cannot dispute this.

 

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Not only is that the most obvious strawman ever, but it also shows that you put no stock whatsoever in freedom.

 

 

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It isn't his fault that the war must be fought. No man can be held responsible for starting a war when war is inevitable.

 

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OF COURSE ITS WHAT THEY WANT. THEY WANT THE EMPIRE TO DIE. THEY SEE ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT HARMS THE EMPIRE AS GOOD. THEY'LL HAPPILY APPLAUD THE GOD DAMN COMMON COLD IF IT SO HAPPENS TO MAKE ITS WAY TO THE EMPEROR.

 

That. Does. NOT. Override. the. Legitimacy. of. the. rebellion. :wallbash:

 

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He is insignificant. He's weak and lost belief in the legitimacy of his cause years ago, instead replacing his will to fight with his own ambition. He is a good warrior sure, but that is all he ever was. The only reason he was ever important at all was just because he happened to be the one who started the inevitable war. He's replaceable with virtually any Nord that believes in fighting for Skyrim and Talos.

 

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And the Mede Empire is the wrong idea. (Namely because its the exact same as the Septim Empire, sans the legitimate leadership)

 

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