Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

You can always make alliances, even the empire can make an aliance with Hammerfell to fight the Dominion if they invade. Because unlike the stormcloaks, Hammerfell didn't go to war with the empire. There is no crippling political strife between the two as there would be between Skyrim and the remnants of the empire, should the stormcloaks succede.

 

When you say the empire is collapsing what do you mean exactly? Do you think the empire would be millitarily stronger if it broke into several nations? How is that exactly? Why would you want to give up centralised leadership and the strategic advantage in Cyrodill, when you need to stick together now more than ever?

 

Umm, Its stated that Hammerfell's abandonment caused bitter resentment between the Redguards and the Empire.

 

 

And I'm sorry, I've sort of stopped explaining why the EMpire is collapsing because it gets repetative, I'll elaborate for you.

 

Ever since the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire has been slowly falling apart. Titus Mede I managed to hold the Empire together for a while, however, undoubtedly, all the work done by the Septims to unify Tamriel would have been undone.

 

Prior to the Great War, the Empire lost Elsweyr, Valenwood and Summerset Isles to the Dominion, Black Marsh to the Argonians and Morrowind to a volcanic eruption, all of these disruptions would have placed a strain on the economy of the Empire.

 

Then, with the great War, Cyrodiil was decimated, and Hammerfell was forced to leave. Leaving the Empire with 4 provinces out of 9 it started with 200 years ago (so in a matter of 200 years, 5 provinces left).

 

Lets begin a bit of mathematics. We know that each province provides the Empire with tax revenue, and that the Empire is able to exploit each provinces natural resources, meaning each province contributes to the Imperial treasury.

 

So, we'll assume that 100% of the Empires economy is from all nine provinces, and we'll also assume that the input is equal from all provinces (it probably isn't, but just to get an idea of how devestating this is):

 

100%/9 = 12.2222% of the Imperial revenue from each province.

 

The Empire now only has 4 provinces, so we get this:

 

12.22222% x 4 = 48.88888%

 

So the Empire has less than half its original income than it did during the Septim era. But of course, this model is purely mathematical. The real figure would be much lower, as 3 out of these four provinces are experiencing some form of turmoil (Skyrim = Civil War, Morrowind - disaster, Cyrodiil = gang Wars and decimation following the great war) Leaving High Rock as possibly the only peaceful province (Although Cicero places doubt on that as well). Furthermore, we can't rely upon Imperial savings from before the Great War, as the Markarth incident showed that the Empire was unable to pay mercenaries to fight for them following Red Ring.

 

So the idea of military supremacy and central leadership is undermined by a spiral of economic collapse. No money means no pay for troops, and no recovery. No pay for troops and no recovery means unrest. Unrest leads to rebellion. Rebellion leads to less money etc etc...

Edited February 17, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[imperistan]

Stormcloaks the army and Stormcloaks the small organization (personally I've never seen these Nords that say this) are not the same thing.

 

-

 

Yes, it did win the war. Phyrric may be, but still a win, enough of a win that they could have demanded unconditional truce from the Dominion had Mede not so eagerly handed them everything without even considering what was going on elsewhere.

 

The Empire isn't just Cyrodiil. You can't act based on the situation there alone.

 

-

 

Still speaks volumes about their capabilities. Fact of the matter is, if you pro-Imperials are going to continue to use the argument that the Dominion could have waltzed over everyone after the War of the Red Ring (Or could so even now in the present), then you have to explain why they didn't waltz over Hammerfel.

 

25 years isn't enough time for a country like Alinor to build back up the strength required to just waltz over Tamriel, even without the Empire in its way.

 

-

 

Strength is irrelevant, an alliance between the remaining armies would be just as strong as the Legion is now. What matters is leadership, and the Empire has proven to be inept in this regard.

 

And before you say it, one general having a clue (Tullius) doesn't mean the rest of the Legion nor the Empire itself has as much of a clue. Tullius is subordinate to several people who are likely stupider than he is (and in the case of the Emperor, definitely is), and he'll likely never come to rise above them.

 

 

I for one wouldn't be averse to seeing a truly Legion lead effort (IE, the Legion at the top), but for that to happen the Empire would have to collapse anyway. The Legion at least could carve out a strong state post Alinor (and so could the Stormcloaks). But if the Empire goes on to victory in the Civil War, then that wont' happen. All we'll get is a continuation of the same, weak, inept state. Even if it somehow manages to break Alinor, eventually the Empire will collapse.

 

Carving out something new now is going to leave everyone better off than trying to scrap together something new after the old collapses with no warning.

 

-

 

You'd have to pull some real rabbits out of a hat to convince me that Hammerfel would ever ally itself with the same thing that:

 

A. Abandoned it to be destroyed by elves.

 

B. Isn't even needed by them. (You know damn well the Empire would try and absorb Hammerfel)

 

To say that Hammerfel has no beef with the Empire is a complete lie.

 

-

 

The Empire is collapsing because it isn't sustainable anymore. Hammerfel already proved independence was possible even against approximately all of the odds and without help from approximately no one. The Emperor is dead, and no heir is apparent (same situation that killed the last Empire). The Legion is struggling to maintain peace in all 3 provinces that now make up the Empire.

 

The Empire's might on paper might seem well, but in reality its failing. Might isn't sustainable when the infrastructure to support it is collapsing.

 

Sticking together is all well and good, but not if what holds everyone together is the same thing that allowed all of this to unfold. (there was a reason the Septim dynasty died out. The Empire wasn't meant to survive)

 

[kradus]

Think about it.

You're saying that Hammerfell would be too riled to join the empire, even if they didn't actually fight each other, fine. But assuming that 2 factions that did fight each other would be even more pissed, then by your own logic, Tamriel would be broken further if the Stormcloaks won. Because Ulfric wouldn't be able to ally with his former enemies (Cyrodill and High Rock). Get it now? The empire is more likely to ally with Hammerfell than Ulfric is likely to ally with anyone but Hammerfell.

 

The empire was fragmenting after the oblivion crisis, because as you implied, it had no real leadership. The Medes apparently put a stop to that, so you can't use the argument "the empire is dieing" anymore, it's a different empire now.

 

The loss of income from the former provinces is also not relevant, because it's also a loss in expenditure. The empire still only needs to spend money on the lands it taxes.

 

The only problem now are the Thalmor, because the WTG and the loss of Hammerfell where enforced by foreign hands, not internal issues. It wasn't the empire, but the Dominion who caused all recent strife.

 

Which brings us to your questioning of Titus Mede's leadership.

As I've stated above, the emperor did what he could with what he had. You have no reason to believe that because Hammerfell drove the Thalmor out, that they where too weak to fight. It means they where unwilling to fight a lasting guerrilla war with a nation that was already independent from the empire(must I repeat myself again), when the empire was consolidating it's forces. You can't guess how strong the Dominion was by the result of that minor war, just because they eventually retreated. The US/Vietnam war is a valid example of why the stronger faction would retreat from a guerrilla war, if you persist on denying this. So that argument is also invalid.

Forging a peace treaty with Hammerfell instead ensured that the Dominion would be in shape to face the empire in a future war, especially if they could cause dissent(stormcloak rebelion) in the meantime.

 

I can certainly claim that the attack on Cyrodill alone would have a big impact on the empire, because it did. As was stated, not just by me, that Cyrodill is the main source of the empire's food, as well as the seat of the empire's capital(it's treasury etc.), overall its richest province before the war. The Fact the empire is still economically crippled from that war, after 25 years or so, is proof of how bad it was back then, while the Dominion lands in contrast where untouched. So the Dominion where overall better, save the loss of one army.

 

These are the reasons that led the emperor to propose such a bad peace treaty. Bad leadership would be to carry on with a war that can't be won.

 

 

So the idea of military supremacy and central leadership is undermined by a spiral of economic collapse. No money means no pay for troops, and no recovery. No pay for troops and no recovery means unrest. Unrest leads to rebellion. Rebellion leads to less money etc etc...

 

Which is exactly why the rebelion must be put down. Also, the provinces aren't going to make more income separated, than when they where united. For all we know there will be more unrest in Cyrodill from a lack of external support, and you know what that means in the next great war.

Edited February 18, 2013 by kradus

[imperistan]

You're in denial if you believe Hammerfel would ever ally itself with the Empire after what it did. Hammerfel has every reason to be against the Empire. This is verifiable fact. To suggest that Hammerfel ally itself with the Empire again to anyone in Hammerfel would be met with, at best, a stoning.

 

Hammerfel has no beef with Skyrim itself nor the Stormcloaks. If Ulfric proposed an alliance, it would actually be possible. Not so with any incarnation of the Empire.

 

Also, Ulfric has no enemy in High Rock. High Rock doesn't really even care. And as for Cyrodiil, there isn't much hostility there either, funnily enough. Most of the conflict is between Ulfric and the Empire's leadership more than it is between Ulfric and the people of the Empire.

 

-

 

Except it is dying. Its lost its leadership, and as all current events show, it isn't going to be sustainable in the long run. The Dark Brotherhood is on the rise again. Assassinations are going to become common place again, and with no apparent heir to the throne, the power struggle will tear apart the Imperial leadership. The Legion is struggling to maintain order within the Empire, with unrest beginning to unfold in Cyrodiil, already happening Skyrim, and High Rock squabbling as much as ever.

 

-

 

The Dominion didn't hold a sword to Mede's neck and make him sign the WGC. He wrote it up and eagerly sent it to the Dominion without any consideration for what it would do to everything beyond CYrodiil's borders. He begged the Dominion for a truce by giving them everything they wanted when he was the one who just destroyed half of their invading armies.

 

-

 

That's missing the point of why I argued that. I argued that to dispute the idea that the Dominion both was and is capable of just rolling over Tamriel without even thinking about it without the Legion in its way.

 

OF course the Dominion retreated because it wasn't worth it after 5 years of stalemate, but it completely disproves the idea that the Dominion was EVER so strong that they could just destroy whatever they wanted and that all that held them back was some stupid agreement to a truce.

 

Fact of the matter is is that even with the conditions in Hammerfel, after 5 years if the Dominion was so strong that it could have wiped out the Empire if the WGC never happened, then it would have had ZERO problem dealing with Hammerfel.

 

It doesn't matter what kind of war you're fighting. If you can conquer 3 entire nations after suffering half of your invading armies being completely destroyed, then you will not have any problem whatsoever taking on one nation that barely has an army and doesn't have anywhere near the resources you do.

 

-

 

Bad leadership is ending the war by conceding your enemies original demands when you were the one that just dealt them a massive and crippling blow. The Dominion had no forces that could report to the Thalmor in Cyrodiil after the War of the Red Ring. For all the Dominion would have known immediately following the war, the Empire still had most of its army still standing and ready to fight. Mede could have used this to his advantage to assert an unconditional peace.

 

But even then, he also could have gone on fighting without expending any more resources or men. And not another Dominion troop would have touched Cyrodiil soil either. We already know through hindsight that Hammerfel was going to be able to hold out against the Dominion. Because of that, we can safely say that if Mede had had the balls to keep the war going, even if his forces in Cyrodiil (that could actually still serve that is) only stuck to a defensive position.

 

Mede didn't have to win the war then and there. He only needed to maneuver into a position to demand an unconditional truce, and if he had taken the time to see what was going on in Tamriel before he rushed into the WGC, he could have done so. He had the scores to do it. He has the intelligence available to him if would have asked for it. He had the strength to do it. That he didn't is the mark of a poor, selfish leader.

 

I don't have much a problem with Mede going for peace at this point. Its how he did it that was the problem.

 

-

 

Cyrodiil was the source of food for Valenwood and the Summerset Isles as well by the way, if you're going to use that as an argument. This is in part why Alinor wanted to strike against Hammerfel, and in particular the southern half. Southern Hammerfel is just as fertile as Cyrodiil is. It is likely that the Dominion was beginning strain its internal ability to feed its populace.

 

The Dominion is in no better position economically than the Empire is, unless there's some magical resource wizard somewhere thats making up for Alinor's almost complete and total lack of any large amounts of farmland.

 

-

 

Economies are stimulated when wealth and resources don't become concentrated in any one area and can't easily drift across the continent. The very separation of the nations will encourage a wealth of trade, because if they don't start doing it then they'll die.

 

Nations' do not have to be united to trade with each other, and without the blurred borders of the Empire, wealth starts moving around the continent more making things better for everyone.

 

-

 

 

[kradus]

No, trade and economy dont flowrish with more borders, and burocracy. It's the opposite.

 

The remaining legion forces couldn't go on another campaign without the resources to do so, Cyrodill had just been trashed, it was too soon.

And you're still assuming the Dominion hasn't rebuilt it's millitary by the time of the civil war. Leaving each province independent, each with it's own army, means no aid could be sumoned fast enought to aid a province if it was overwhelmed by the most powerful faction then, the murdering elven maniacs across the border.

And for what I can tell in the game, Ulfric's supporters have a deep disdain for non nords, imperials in particular. So it's naive to assume that stormcloaks wouldn't oppose helping the very soldiers who fought them in the past.

The same is valid for the other side, or any 2 factions at war in fact. You may pretend it's not so, but denial is common place in your ranks.

Again, dividing you armies into several different armies spread across the map can only be good for a more powerful enemy.

Edited February 18, 2013 by kradus

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

No thats just stupid to say that.

 

A three front war is a lot more difficult than one. Anyone with half a mind understands that.

 

Galmar himself claims that you dont have to be a Nord to fight for Skyrim. The Nords value hard work and honesty. In Riften the Dark elves are treated very fairly. The ones in Windhelm are treated like sh*t because they do nothing. There are some who do work and there wealthy.

 

The Nords when they were in the Empire (Heroic and Legendary Nord legions) saved it with minimal losses. They could have easily started utter annihilation against the elves but TMII said "No, stop, why don't we give them what they want? I'm not sorry for it either."

 

TMII gave them his remaining gold to buy the Jarls off so they wont rebel. Ulfric doesnt accept the gold and does rebel. Same with 3 other Jarls.

 

The Nords have a past of being extremely independent. The Elves have a past of being extremely secretive.

 

Everyone has their traits.

 

The Empire isnt dying, that much your correct on. Its not dying, its dead. You have finally admitted that its a different Empire.

 

Also I don't think it's mere coincidence that TES Online shows the three Alliances, I have a hunch that there will be a second Ebonheart Pact like there is a second Aldmeri Dominion, Also a second Daggerfall Covenant.

 

That might never happen again. Maybe. Its a dream really.

 

The Legion cant just act on its own like I have said 100 times. With TMII dead the Empire is in an undeniable power struggle. The Empire is gone. Its just the Kingdom of Cyrodiil. (And maybe High Rock)

 

Each Nord has more will to fight than the entire Legion has put together, thats just plain to see.

 

Look at it objectively. Like I do. You look at it subjectively. Which may be why you dont see our reasoning.

 

Also I know for a fact that the AD is planning another war with the Empire because they call the Great War "The First war with the Empire."

Edited February 18, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[StormHammer81]

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited February 20, 2013 by StormHammer81

[kradus]

This was supposed to be a forum, not a piss contest.

[fraquar]

Skryim isn't done with THE Empire, it's done with THIS Empire. Nobody is naive enough to think Skyrim is going to stand alone - even Ulfric. Comes a time when the status quo isn't cutting it anymore and that time is now.

Knowing Skyrim's history, the equivalent to smacking a bee hive with a broom stick is to INVITE the Thalmor into Skyrim territory. That is really where the Empire lost all common sense.

Edited February 18, 2013 by fraquar

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Skyrim doesnt have to stand alone, and thank you StormHammer81. That was excellent.

 

Skyrim and Hammerfell, as much as they dislike each other or even hate each other, they have a common ground and a true enemy. That is enough reason for a temporary alliance.

 

Like StormHammer said, it's to the point where the Empire needs Skyrim but Skyrim doesnt need the Empire.

 

Its going to be a war of Men VS Mer soon and Skyrim will lead Men, Hammerfell will lead Men. The AD will lead Mer. A clash in Tamriel, the final battle for divinity and the right for men to exist among Nirn.

 

Thats what the lore says anyway. That Tamriel is the place where the Final battle will take place. Thats why the Elves want to control it. They know the Men will revolt and fight them but if they can weaken them now then they will so they know they will win the final struggle. Skyrim wants differently.