Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

Think about it.

You're saying that Hammerfell would be too riled to join the empire, even if they didn't actually fight each other, fine. But assuming that 2 factions that did fight each other would be even more pissed, then by your own logic, Tamriel would be broken further if the Stormcloaks won. Because Ulfric wouldn't be able to ally with his former enemies (Cyrodill and High Rock). Get it now? The empire is more likely to ally with Hammerfell than Ulfric is likely to ally with anyone but Hammerfell.

 

The empire was fragmenting after the oblivion crisis, because as you implied, it had no real leadership. The Medes apparently put a stop to that, so you can't use the argument "the empire is dieing" anymore, it's a different empire now.

 

The loss of income from the former provinces is also not relevant, because it's also a loss in expenditure. The empire still only needs to spend money on the lands it taxes.

 

The only problem now are the Thalmor, because the WTG and the loss of Hammerfell where enforced by foreign hands, not internal issues. It wasn't the empire, but the Dominion who caused all recent strife.

 

Which brings us to your questioning of Titus Mede's leadership.

As I've stated above, the emperor did what he could with what he had. You have no reason to believe that because Hammerfell drove the Thalmor out, that they where too weak to fight. It means they where unwilling to fight a lasting guerrilla war with a nation that was already independent from the empire(must I repeat myself again), when the empire was consolidating it's forces. You can't guess how strong the Dominion was by the result of that minor war, just because they eventually retreated. The US/Vietnam war is a valid example of why the stronger faction would retreat from a guerrilla war, if you persist on denying this. So that argument is also invalid.

Forging a peace treaty with Hammerfell instead ensured that the Dominion would be in shape to face the empire in a future war, especially if they could cause dissent(stormcloak rebelion) in the meantime.

 

I can certainly claim that the attack on Cyrodill alone would have a big impact on the empire, because it did. As was stated, not just by me, that Cyrodill is the main source of the empire's food, as well as the seat of the empire's capital(it's treasury etc.), overall its richest province before the war. The Fact the empire is still economically crippled from that war, after 25 years or so, is proof of how bad it was back then, while the Dominion lands in contrast where untouched. So the Dominion where overall better, save the loss of one army.

 

These are the reasons that led the emperor to propose such a bad peace treaty. Bad leadership would be to carry on with a war that can't be won.

 

 

So the idea of military supremacy and central leadership is undermined by a spiral of economic collapse. No money means no pay for troops, and no recovery. No pay for troops and no recovery means unrest. Unrest leads to rebellion. Rebellion leads to less money etc etc...

 

Which is exactly why the rebelion must be put down. Also, the provinces aren't going to make more income separated, than when they where united. For all we know there will be more unrest in Cyrodill from a lack of external support, and you know what that means in the next great war.

 

Sorry, I've been a bit busy recently, so, i apologise for this late reply.

 

When a people have a deep rooted hatred from being stabbed in the back like Hammerfell was, they don't take kindly to their backstabbers. Did Stalin want to talk with hitler after Barbarossa?

 

I fail to see why a new dynasty means a new Empire. China had thousands of dynastic changes, yet was considered the longest living Empire in History. If all the provinces left, and nothing was left of the Empire at all, then I'd consider it a change of Empire, but there is no evidence that happened (in fact, there is evidence on the contrary, it is implied that Skyrim remained with the Empire during this time).

 

That said, if it is a new empire, it sort of contradicts my general rise-equilibrium-fall theory, although a nation can be born weak, and thus will appear to be in the 'fall' stage from birth. And regardless, saying the Empire is not dying ignores my analysis of the great War, and its aftermath (bringi9ng us to the same page anyway).

 

Losing provinces is indeed a loss of expenditure, but the Empire is run similar to how capitalism runs in the sense that if it isn't profitable, don't bother. If a province produced a loss, why would they care (look at Black marsh, they hardly occupied it!)? Not to mention what about the Troops stationed in said province? How are they paid? Are they sacked? What about defense?

 

Empires do not simply loose land, and then end up richer. Rome lost much land, sometimes as payment to mercenaries, yet they just became weaker and poorer. If you can disprove that, may you please give me an example.

 

It was obvious to anyone who looks at the situation mede found himself in. The Thalmor were willing to sue for peace. Or knew nothing about military tactics (a disproven point). The Empire may not have been able to fight, but it would seem that neither could the Dominion (particularly after such a devastating battle). He was either a coward, or an idiot to accept the same terms he went to war over, when he could have demanded fairer terms.

 

Now, saying the rebellion must be ended to save the Empire still doesn't account for the economic instability plaguing it. Even if the Empire won back Skyrim, without a powerful economy, another revolt will appear elsewhere.

[MidbossVyers]

Outsiders may consider China to be 1 long empire, but many Chinese people loyal to specific dynasties consider each of them to be separate empires (in fact, many of those people commited suicide after 1 dynasty ended because they didn't want to live in "the land of their enemies").

[fraquar]

The problem with the whole "peace treaty" is there was no real negotiation, it was basically the same terms that were demanded that started the whole bloody war in the first place. After taking back Cyrodill and destroying an entire Thalmor army you'd figure that the Emperor was in a VERY GOOD position to sue for better terms.

 

He basically caved in, there really isn't any other explanation.

 

It's like you are in a boxing match and the other guy demands you take a dive.

You say screw you, continue to fight and get bloodied in the process.

In the 11th round you hit him with a haymaker he never saw coming, he's staggered, dazed and confused.

In the 12th round, you say "sorry" and gladly offer your chin to his fist......

 

Thats basically the way it went down.

[StormHammer81]

Yep. The man lost his nerve... or lost his mind. Stress can do this to people.

Either way, he's not fit to rule and def not fit to be an Emperor anymore.

Instead of putting the Thalmor back in their place, he's encouraging them. Course he did that before too... hmmm.

The only real, logical explanation I can come to would be so that TMII could have an easy means of recapturing Cyrodil. Because based on what I read, nearly every single city in Cyrodil fell to the Thalmor and even after Red Ring, the Thalmor were in control of those cities. Sieging a city can be extremely difficult and perhaps worst of all, Time Consuming. He did it to reclaim Cyrodil because his few remaining Legions were at or below 40% cap + injuries and could not have reclaimed Cyrodil on their own. This DOES NOT mean I agree with him, although it makes sense. Because before this, things looked very dark for the Empire as the Thalmor did in fact, control every city in Cyrodil except Bruma.

Edited February 20, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Kayyyleb]

StormHammer81, on 18 Feb 2013 - 19:37, said:

@Kayyyleb

 

Let it be noted that for the record, I tried to meet this guy half-way.

 

OK.

 

Your S*TTY LITTLE ATTITUDE is reason enough for anyone to rebel.

 

ATHE-ISM. It's an ISM. Therefore, it's a IDEA, a state of mind. Ideas can be banned, you are NOT special in this regard.

 

This is not exactly like WWII. For one thing, the ALLIES were not allowing Hitler to extend his policies into their countries. Britain DID NOT allow Htiler to go throughout their nation gathering up Jews for the bon-fire(s).

 

WE FIGHT FOR HONOR AND GLORY. HONOR AND GLORY. GLORY AND HONOR. You fight out of FEAR and GREED. And I don't give two sh*ts what somoene like you thinks about me hahahaha. You have nothing on me little man. Least I'm not the one trying to make excuses for putting innocent people in shackles.

 

And another thing, it's a video game, ok so then stop posting if it ain't worth talking about. Unless we have a point somewhere that you can't comprehend / rebuttle.

 

EVERYONE IS BIASED in some way, just like you're biased against Religion and people who don't agree with you. It's a part of who you are. And I don't see anything wrong with it. No one should be FORCING ANYONE ELSE into thinking or liking anything.

 

And your petulant attitude is one thing which turned me on Atheists a long time ago... among other types of people... and yet, even so I try to be understanding and TOLERANT.

Oh cute, an internet tough kid.

 

Meet me halfway my ass. You're just ranting like a child now. Take your meds and shut up. Seriously. That's really all you deserve to be told at this point. Don't expect anything any more polite from now on. Don't act like you tried being the good guy when you're the one behaving like an angry child. Caps lock doesn't make your point stronger.

 

The irony that you can cry about religious freedom yet support the racists is truly laughable. Praising tolerance while exercising bigotry makes you nothing more than a hypocrite. You evidently DO seem to think there's something wrong with my ideals because you're the one figuratively screaming at me over the internet about how you disapprove. So make up your mind: you either care what I say or you don't. Signs are showing that you seem to care quite a great deal that I don't agree with you and it irks you. Saying you don't care what I think is a false display of pointless bravado so spare me your theatrics because it's not difficult to see through it at all. You're damn right it's a video game, and yet here you are being increasingly hostile toward me over a petty debate over the politics in a GAME. Calm your ass down and grow up a little. Once you can act with some semblance of maturity I might consider reading your posts again.

 

Also, your broke down the word wrong anyways, though not shocking that you'd try to twist truth to fit your argument.

 

a-thei-ism. Why is this important? Because the prefix a- means "not".

 

Thus atheism literally means "not god doctrine" or not believing in god. One's "ideas" are not determined by what they do not believe in but rather by what they do believe in. Your fundamental misunderstanding of philosophy puts you in an ill-advised position to pretend to debate such a matter.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[StormHammer81]

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited February 22, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Kayyyleb]

StormHammer81, on 19 Feb 2013 - 20:10, said:

@Kayyyleb

 

The only one acting like a child here is you.

 

Listen, I really don't care what your opinion is or what you think of mine.

 

I have tried HARD to portray both sides to this thing, in a reasonable and concise manner. And the only thing you have done is attacked me personally. This is the trademark of a strong liberal, but I digress. Because that's what they do, they can't ge their way, they can't convince soemone else of their point of view, they go on the offensive.

 

You have a problem with Religion, I can tell. No one is trying to force anything on you, it's really other way around.

 

And all we're saying is, we will have our Freedom and this Empire will die.

 

Oh so now I'm ranting, coming from the Chief Instigator I'd consider that a compliment.

 

You know what I think, I think we know more about your material than you do and quite frankly, I think you're intimidated by it. Don't know what to say or do.

 

So you go ahead and continue attacking my person, and I will go ahead and declare TOTAL VICTORY over the argument, seeing how the pro-Imperials have conceded the debate.

 

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE!!!

So now you're trying outright lies? You're the one who started attacking me, you're the one who started the yelling. You're rather delusional if you think you can get away with that when I only need to click back a couple pages to prove my point. You haven't even attempted to see both sides, you're as biased as you accuse me of being. You're the one who started the personal attacks, don't lie when the evidence is right in front of me.

 

I love how you now mention being a liberal has something to do with this. You really are just making this up as you go aren't you? My real life political views haven't come into play in any way yet you're now going to presuppose my beliefs, my life experiences, hell why don't you use that crystal ball to tell me my age and eye color too while you're making everything up? Not to mention a blanket generalization fallacy by saying ALL liberals act as you describe which is demonstrably false (and conservatives are guilty of all the same problems and don't pretend otherwise).

 

You have a running record of being the instigator and antagonist ever since you started replying to me. I wasn't even replying to you at all when I first started here but you're showing yourself to purely be trolling at this point.

 

Also debates are not won simply because one side stops responding. Yelling loudly doesn't make you right and any delusion that this is the case only further shows you're either a troll or woefully ignorant of how debates operate. And you're displaying a very bothersome inability to separate reality from fiction. Stormcloaks are a fictional faction in a fictional game universe. YOU are not a Stormcloak or a Nord and you don't live in a place called Skyrim. You really need to go outside and live in the real world for a bit. Your behavior is nothing short of shameful for someone who claims to be 31 years old in their profile. Rather, you behave like you're 13.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[StormHammer81]

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited February 22, 2013 by StormHammer81

[RighthandofSithis]

 

StormHammer81, on 18 Feb 2013 - 19:37, said:

@Kayyyleb

 

Let it be noted that for the record, I tried to meet this guy half-way.

 

OK.

 

Your S*TTY LITTLE ATTITUDE is reason enough for anyone to rebel.

 

ATHE-ISM. It's an ISM. Therefore, it's a IDEA, a state of mind. Ideas can be banned, you are NOT special in this regard.

 

This is not exactly like WWII. For one thing, the ALLIES were not allowing Hitler to extend his policies into their countries. Britain DID NOT allow Htiler to go throughout their nation gathering up Jews for the bon-fire(s).

 

WE FIGHT FOR HONOR AND GLORY. HONOR AND GLORY. GLORY AND HONOR. You fight out of FEAR and GREED. And I don't give two sh*ts what somoene like you thinks about me hahahaha. You have nothing on me little man. Least I'm not the one trying to make excuses for putting innocent people in shackles.

 

And another thing, it's a video game, ok so then stop posting if it ain't worth talking about. Unless we have a point somewhere that you can't comprehend / rebuttle.

 

EVERYONE IS BIASED in some way, just like you're biased against Religion and people who don't agree with you. It's a part of who you are. And I don't see anything wrong with it. No one should be FORCING ANYONE ELSE into thinking or liking anything.

 

And your petulant attitude is one thing which turned me on Atheists a long time ago... among other types of people... and yet, even so I try to be understanding and TOLERANT.

Oh cute, an internet tough kid.

 

Meet me halfway my ass. You're just ranting like a child now. Take your meds and shut up. Seriously. That's really all you deserve to be told at this point. Don't expect anything any more polite from now on. Don't act like you tried being the good guy when you're the one behaving like an angry child. Caps lock doesn't make your point stronger.

 

I second this comment.

 

Stormhammer, seriously, if you are going to argue, particularly on these forums, try and conduct yourself in a respectable manner. You are, in fact, tainting Stormcloak supporters and their arguments, giving me and every other Stormcloak a bad name, and ultimately, fueling Imperial support.

 

I admit though, that occasionally, debate can become heated, and sometimes, your message and tone can be misinterpreted online.

[StormHammer81]

So, if that's how you Stormcloaks really feel then so be it. I must admit, there are some things that you guys believe which I cannot come to terms with. Honestly, as I have said, there is truth found in both sides. Another thing, calling me out like this doesn't really make me feel to welcome.

I make no apology and perhaps this was just a bad idea. It seems you have "misinterpreted" the meaning behind my posts here. If you are going to just be "dismissive" of anything which could put a postive light on the Empire, then maybe some of these guys on here are right... you guys really are biased. And that's one thing I am not. You know, when Ulfric "shouted down" Torygg. I guess that could be misinterpreted as well... The Dossier on Ulfric seems pretty clear though.

Also, I didn't give you guys a bad name, don't even go there Sithis. If anyone gives you a bad name, it's you. So, my question is, or line thinking is, the Empire and the Stormcloaks need to work together, ok? Because they need each other. All this fighting and bickering won't solve problems for either of them. You know, this reminds me of like the "Season Unending Quest' where Tullius kinda left the door open to the Empire wanting to settle with Ulfric.

But would Ulfric have it? HELL NO. He wouldn't hear a word of it. Just like you are doing now. So nevermind me, forget about me completely. What if another Stormcloak was thinking along these lines? What if they like, hated the Empire but still felt that Ulfric wasn't doing the greatest job in the world. What then? Are you in fact, telling us that Stormcloaks can be oppressive as well as Imperials then?

Granted, yes, folks. I have been an Imperial for a very long time. I have fought the Imperial cause more times than I can remember and have fought on some issues that no one else here as even brought up yet.

I'm curious Sithis, you guys wanted us to tell the world how "oppressive" we are. Are you NOT saying to me and before the world that you are not being "oppressive" towards myself and other Stormcloaks who MAY or MAY NOT think along your "party lines"? All Stormcloaks out there can't possibly agree with you and your methods. Just like all Imperials didn't agree with me, although most did.

Just like in the Empire, some of us agreed with TMII and the WGC, while the rest of us including myself wanted to give the Empire time to earn another chance at the game, to start over fresh with no TMII or WGC. And no one, I mean no one Imperial EVER fought against another one of us because of a different "party line".

 

The downfall of the Stormcloaks cause is, you can't just keep rebelling forever. At some point, you must FORGIVE and unite. The Empire understands this as we have "direction", our downfall is right now, we don't have a leader to make this happen. Whereas the Stormcloaks have a leader, however, you have no real "direction", with sometimes leaderless armies rebelling over every little thing they don't like.

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

 

 

http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/images/32122-1-1361464638.jpg

Edited February 21, 2013 by StormHammer81