Imperial VS Stormcloak

[swiftfoxmark2]

I don't know where this notion that Ulfric is racist came into play. I know he is definitely showing favor toward the Nords, but they are his own people and the ones to whom he is responsible. They did, after all, name him Jarl following his father's demise. I'll grant that there are racists all around as many Nords, Altmer, and Dunmer seem to be in who's-the-baddest-race-in-Tamriel contest. Ulfric just seems more like a vetaran suffering from PTSD who finds that all he fought for was wasted doesn't view the White-Gold Concordat as a surrender to the Aldmeri Dominion. Especially when there are Thalmer-run torture dungeons and inquisitors all over Skyrim.

 

In any case, people forget what Niranye says on the subject:

 

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

 

Here is a High Elf who owns a shop in the marketplace, a favor only granted by the Jarl himself. If Ulric was truly racist, he wouldn't have give her a license to sell her goods in the market. And the Dunmer people are a stubborn, prideful lot, unable to see that their glory has twilghted and that they will have to adapt to their new state, following the Argonian invasions and the Red Mountain erupting.

 

The thing is, when you migrate to a new country, as many Dunmer have, you have to adapt to that culture, otherwise you will be ostricised and end up living in self-imposed segregation. The Dunmer's condition in Windhelm is really their own fault.

 

Right or wrong, people should be allowed to pursue their own beliefs and doctrines provided it doesn't bring harm to others. I know the Imperial side is much more complex than that, but at the end of the day, I have a much more favorable view of the Stormcloaks than the Imperials.

[MidbossVyers]

Actually, most Dunmer who aren't jobless hobos consider the Gray Quarter Dunmer to be too bitter. There is that Dunmer farmer, whose name escapes me at the moment, but Teldryn Sero, the mercenary added by the Dragonborn DLC, also calls the Gray Quarter Dunmer bitter. Similarly, he calls the Empire "heartless bastards".

[hardarg]

Quote

The thing is, when you migrate to a new country, as many Dunmer have, you have to adapt to that culture, otherwise you will be ostricised and end up living in self-imposed segregation. The Dunmer's condition in Windhelm is really their own fault.

This I agree with. As the saying goes: "When in Rome, do what the Romans do."

I myself slightly lean to the Imperials, to be fair I don't think Ulfric is racist, but shows favoritism to the Nords,

 

Also, what's these arguements I've read about Elisif only carring about fashion? i'm sorry but I do not understand. :psyduck:

Edited February 20, 2013 by hardarg

[StormHammer81]

@hardarg

 

Agreed. I have never understood why all the hatred for Elisif. She seems like she really has a good heart and it's obvious she puts the good of her people before her own ambition.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Right, a Jarl who shops and enjoys some of her own pleasures doesnt make her bad, the reason why I myself don't like her is because she's to overwhelmed by being Jarl, Falk Fire-beard is really the Jarl. Elisef isnt a bad person just not the most perfect Jarl.

[StormHammer81]

Correct.

 

I think in time, Elisif will get her feet... or perhaps the moot will choose someone else. We'll have to see.

Edited February 21, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Kayyyleb]

I second this comment.

 

Stormhammer, seriously, if you are going to argue, particularly on these forums, try and conduct yourself in a respectable manner. You are, in fact, tainting Stormcloak supporters and their arguments, giving me and every other Stormcloak a bad name, and ultimately, fueling Imperial support.

 

I admit though, that occasionally, debate can become heated, and sometimes, your message and tone can be misinterpreted online.

 

I was going to abandon thread until I saw this post. I feel you deserve some credit for defusing a brewing flame war before it got out of hand. I honestly mean that.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

I second this comment.

 

Stormhammer, seriously, if you are going to argue, particularly on these forums, try and conduct yourself in a respectable manner. You are, in fact, tainting Stormcloak supporters and their arguments, giving me and every other Stormcloak a bad name, and ultimately, fueling Imperial support.

 

I admit though, that occasionally, debate can become heated, and sometimes, your message and tone can be misinterpreted online.

 

I was going to abandon thread until I saw this post. I feel you deserve some credit for defusing a brewing flame war before it got out of hand. I honestly mean that.

 

I personally can't stand flaming when we are trying to have an honest debate

 

And my personal opinion of Elisif, she seems rather immature. I accept that she lost her husband, but she came around as childish in some of her comments, and while she may have the interests of her people at heart, she is far to overzelous (willing to use significant resources to examine a situation she knows little about).

 

For these reasons, I state she is a terrible leader.

[LithiumPower]

Elisef is no leader at all. She's immature and foolish even when she purports to have good intentions. She felt like a caricature of Marie Antoinette - naive and frivolous in a time her people are oppressed and angry. Her court again felt vaguely reminiscent of Versailles right before the revolution - sycophantic thanes, scheming, scandal and excess.

 

The shopping/fashion thing comes from the quest 'Fit for a Jarl' in which Taarie of Radiant Raiments asks you to model clothes for her and says that the Jarl has an eye for clothes. When you approach her wearing Taarie's couture, Elisef comments on it and asks to be referred to the designer.

 

This image of Ulfric as a racist - I don't get that either. The only overtly racist people in Windhelm are Rolff and Agrenor, one is a drunk hobo and the other is a beggar. I don't think they are representative of Windhelm's government. Galmar himself is passionate yes but he doesn't display any outright hate against non-Nords, except the Thalmor.

 

Brunwulf Free-Winter accuses Ulfric of not doing enough to improve the Gray Quarter and the issue is raised by Ulfric's steward Jorleif once too. Ulfric says he has a war on his hands and he can't be concerned with petty issues and I agree with him. The dunmer are not being actively persecuted but the nords are and in their own homeland. The Empire's occupation, the religious persecution and an on-going war that is costing lives every day is a bigger issue than a ghetto and it's problems. Having said that, not even all the elves are in accord with Ambarys Rendarr's activism. Belyn Hlaalu doesn't live in the Gray Quarter, he owns a farm and has nords working on it. There's Niranye fresh off the boat from Summerset Isle and she's well-settled. Suvaris has a managerial position working with the Shatter-Shield's, and Faryl Atheron works hard at Brandy-Mug farm. They all feel the dunmer are at least partially, responsible for their situation.

 

As for the argonians, arguably they have it worse but their situation is more difficult to parse. There's four of them and assuming they are a representative cross-section of the argonian community in Windhelm they make it hard to sympathise much for their plight. Stands-in-Shallows is a skooma addict who begs you to steal some for his next hit. Shahvee is an ex-thief. Neetranaza is hostile to the player in most cases and belligerant towards the nords of Windhelm. Scouts-Many-Marshes openly admits argonian dock workers steal from their employers. You can't convince them to change their minds or adjust their attitude even if you convince Torbjon into paying them more and treating them better.

 

What's more a change in regime doesn't change their situation which suggests that Ulfric wasn't the problem despite being credited for not allowing them in the city.

 

Windhelm is beset with problems - social issues, law and order, economic recession and general hardship but these are all things you would expect in a city bearing the brunt of the pressure of conducting a war.

 

The more I play the game, the more I read up on it and examine the dilemma in its entirety, the more convinced I feel that Ulfric's cause is not only just but also necessary to defeat the Dominion in the long-run and the more baffled I become by the contempt and hate there is for Ulfric based on nothing more than hearsay and weak cimcumstantial evidence.

 

Where is real proof that he's racist and bigoted. Where is real proof that he is greedy and power hungry? Where is real proof that his intentions are other than what he states they are?

 

 

 

 

I'm also glad this discussion didn't get derailed. There were some excellent posts and arguments that were being made and it would have been a pity to lose that discussion.

[hardarg]

I agree that Elisif isn't really Jarl material on first impressions, though to imply she won't improve in the coming years is a false statement. Leaders are not born in a day. Also with Falk-Firebeard's loyaltly and wisdom in politics, I'm certain Elisif will get the hang of things.

 

I admire her dedication to her people, and was rather upset about the comments that say she's too obssessed with fashion?? I mean, a person can indulge in other thinsgs right? Frow what I've read from those comments that relate about the matter, that's like saying leaders can't have time for themselves.

Edited February 21, 2013 by hardarg