kradus Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Also, people arent just getting killed in the rebellion. Its just Nords and Legionnaires. When the Stormcloaks took Whiterun only legionnaires died. And Whiterun guards, potentially a few Stormcloaks as well but no civilians. They do speak of war crimes perpetrated by both sides in the grey beard's council, and theres also Ulfric's meltdown in Markarth. Regardless, every soldier killed in the war strenghtens the Dominion's position in Tamriel, and it was the stormcloaks who started rebelling, so they're directly responsible for all the killings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajuukkhar9000 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) The chieftains of Skyrim taught Talos the art of warfare, as stated by the lore. General Tullius isnt a Nord like Tiber Septim was. He isnt going to unite Tamriel because unlike Talos he doesnt understand Nordic culture. The Greybeards told Tiber that he was meant to unite and rule Tamriel. Through Nordic culture. Also Skyrim is the home of the Nords. They are fighting for their homeland. Their home. So yes, screw Cyrodiil, first the Nords need to help themselves before they help the people who have screwed them over. By taking the fight to the Thalmor the Nords will be doing the imperials a favor. The Imperials must think very highly of themselves of they think Nords should help them first before they Nords help themselves. The Arcturian Heresy - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Arcturian_Heresy"Leading his forces was Hjalti Early-Beard. Hjalti was from the island kingdom of Alcaire, in High Rock, and would become Tiber Septim, the First Emperor of Tamriel." The Ghost of Old Hroldan - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ghost_of_Old_HroldanGhost: "You promised me, Hjalti. You promised that when we sacked Hroldan, you would make me your sworn brother. And I've waited. Even after the enemies' arrows dug into my chest and their hammers crushed my bones. I've waited. Give me your sword, Hjalti. That we may become brothers as you promised." "It's been an honor to serve you, brother. Remember our lessons from the sword masters of Alcaire? Let me show you a few things you may have forgotten before we leave Hroldan. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbrideLorkhan and his avatars:1. Wulfharth L2. Hjalti O3. Ysmir R4. Talos K5. Arctus H6. Septim AN Tiber Septim was not trained by the Nords at all, he was trained in Alcaire, anything that says he was trained in Skyrim is historical revisionism by the Septim empire, much like the lies that he was from Atmora. -Tiber Septim wasn't an Nord either, he was a breton, him being a nord is, again, historical revisionism, which only furthers my point, the nords got their asses handed to them by a breton, and didn't care to rebel when he formed his empire. -And the Nords were fighting for their homeland at The Battle of Sancre Tor, against Tiber and the armies of King Cuhlecain, and no rebellion formed after. -And taking the battle to The Thalmor, by themselves, when the Empire already plans to do, does The Empire no favors, as it only strips potential forces away from The Empire. -Helping the empire is helping the Nords, because the Empire is the only force which can stand against the AD, and The Thalmor, who seek to purge ALL mankind, from bretons, to nords, to redguards, to Impeirals. Edited February 25, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kradus Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) I wont push my beliefs on others. Only try to make them respect my belief. I respect Christians and Catholics but I dont follow their belief system. You must, if you dont follow the same belief system, respect others for standing up for what they believe in, whether it be right or wrong, you must respect them for that. If they are killing innocents for worshiping in certain gods and if its what they believe in, well I'll respect them having the balls to do it but I'll kill them for it. Or die trying. You're pushing your way of life on others by starting a war they dont want, by pushing for an independent skyrim, when there are many who would remain with the empire, and the lives of the people outside of skyrim will also be affected by the outcome of the war. That's what you're forcing on people. Edited February 25, 2013 by kradus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Oh thats funny because the AD is also planning another war with the Empire. They call the great war "The first war with the Empire" which indicates that they mean to war with them again. The Nords (Stormcloaks) are open about wanting to fight the Thalmor (AD) where as the Empire hides and secretly plans to attempt it. And all in all the Empire is now crippled and incapable. Considering it has a power struggle to deal with on their hands. There are an equal amount of books in game that claim that Tiber was in fact a Nord. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith... http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor These also mention being trained by the Nordic Chieftains (Jarls) They also make note on how the Nords seem to aid his army. So the Nord army wasnt completely destroyed. I'm more so saying that I will fight for my beliefs because its what I believe in. No one has to believe in it also but they should respect it. I respect the muslims and their culture. I'm saying that you dont have to be a Nord who fights for Talos to be a Stormcloak, you just have to want to be free. Edited February 25, 2013 by Stormcloak117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kradus Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 saying that you dont have to be a Nord who fights for Talos to be a Stormcloak, you just have to want to be free. The Thalmor know this and have been counting on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Which doesnt make it wrong. For once I wish people would understand this. The AD manipulated the Empire into screwing its people over by giving them sh*tty terms. And they succeeded. That doesnt make it right for the Empire to allow them to enforce it. It doesnt excuse it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I wont push my beliefs on others. Only try to make them respect my belief. I respect Christians and Catholics but I dont follow their belief system. You must, if you dont follow the same belief system, respect others for standing up for what they believe in, whether it be right or wrong, you must respect them for that. If they are killing innocents for worshiping in certain gods and if its what they believe in, well I'll respect them having the balls to do it but I'll kill them for it. Or die trying. I have respect for the Japanese for being courageous and daring during the second world war. They deserve my respect. As much as I see suicide as being cowardly, thats how I see it, through my culture. But according to theirs its brave and honorable, therefore I respect them for doing it. Cute, but wrong. The Stormcloaks are pushing their beliefs on everyone in Skyrim just the same as the Empire. Half of Skyrim wants to remain with the Empire. Thus why it's a civil war. A ton of the Legionnaires you're killing are Nords. When the war ends, it's still Nords wearing Legion uniforms protecting Skyrim. Your whole attitude regarding Imperial/Nord relations is just bad. You're showing that Stormcloaks are self-centered and short-sighted. It's all about me me me according to them. Screw the Empire, screw the Dunmer, screw anyone who isn't on MY side. That won't get you far no matter who wins between the Empire and Dominion. If the Empire wins, you've alienated and increased hostility with your southern neighbors. If the Dominion wins you're trading one former ally for another enemy. Both are extremely unintelligent choices that weaken rather than strengthen Skyrim in the long term. And for all the whining about the WGC, it's a simple fact that the treaty will be repealed the second the next war starts and will remain so if the Empire wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajuukkhar9000 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) There are an equal amount of books in game that claim that Tiber was in fact a Nord. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiilhttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresyhttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziahhttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor These also mention being trained by the Nordic Chieftains (Jarls)-I think you should re-read the Heresy again, nothing in it mentions that Tiber Septim was a nord, or that he was trained by the Nordic Chieftans, in fact, it's the very book that says he was from High Rock!-The Battle of Sancre Tor also makes no mention of his race, and only mentions Nords when talking about the Nordic-Breton alliance opposing Tiber.-The Real Barenziah also makes no mention of his race, decribing him only as "of average height, fully half a head shorter than tall Symmachus, although he was well-knit of figure and lithe of movement. He had a winning smile, bright -- indeed piercing -- blue eyes, and a full head of stark white hair above a lined and weathered face." Furthermore, The First Pocket Guide to The Empire says many incorrect things.-First it says that Tiber was from Atmora, when the third pocket guide to the empire mentions that by 1E 68, thousands of years BEFORE Tiber had arrived, the land was already frozen over. A fact corroborated by the 36 Lessons of vivec , which depicts Atmora as being dead during Vivec, and Nerevar's life before 1E 700. "They walked to the north to the Elder Wood and found nothing but frozen bearded kings." -Secondly, it says Tiber Septim spent his youth among the Nords, when the Heresy, and the ghost of Old Hroldan, say otherwise. -Furthermore, Kurt Khuulman, one of Bethesda's devs, said this about the Pocket guide's claim that Nedes were from Atmorahttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/kurt-kuhlmann-postsOn the origin of Nedes"The usual Imperial arrogance. The hoary old "Out of Atmora" theory has been widely discredited (no reputable archaeologist would publicly support it these days), but the Imperial Geographers continue to beat the drum of the Nordic Fatherland in the best tradition of the Septim Empire. They seem to think that the imprimature of officialdom gives their outdated scholarship added weight -- which, unfortunately, it appears to in the eyes of the ever-gullible public which continues to snap up the latest Pocket Guides along with the rest of their Imperial Certified pablum. (HA)" Pretty much saying that The Pocket Guide is wrong, and full of propaganda made up by the Septim Empire to make itself look more badass. Edited February 25, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Which doesnt make it wrong. For once I wish people would understand this. The AD manipulated the Empire into screwing its people over by giving them sh*tty terms. And they succeeded. That doesnt make it right for the Empire to allow them to enforce it. It doesnt excuse it."Right" and "wrong" are irrelevant here. The reality is that the Stormcloaks are being manipulated. it's so obvious I have no idea how they can't see it. The bottom line is the Stormcloaks are doing EXACTLY what the AD wants them to down to the letter. Weaken the Empire and Skyrim at the same time to pave the way for a knockout in round 2 with the Empire. When countries sign treaties with each other you're expected to follow through with the agreement. The Thalmor aren't going to accept a treaty if one side is going to blatantly violate it and not allow the other side to verify that it's being followed. You don't seem to have a clue how diplomacy works. Edited February 25, 2013 by Kayyyleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Which doesnt make it wrong. For once I wish people would understand this. The AD manipulated the Empire into screwing its people over by giving them sh*tty terms. And they succeeded. That doesnt make it right for the Empire to allow them to enforce it. It doesnt excuse it."Right" and "wrong" are irrelevant here. The reality is that the Stormcloaks are being manipulated. it's so obvious I have no idea how they can't see it. The bottom line is the Stormcloaks are doing EXACTLY what the AD wants them to down to the letter. Weaken the Empire and Skyrim at the same time to pave the way for a knockout in round 2 with the Empire. When countries sign treaties with each other you're expected to follow through with the agreement. The Thalmor aren't going to accept a treaty if one side is going to blatantly violate it and not allow the other side to verify that it's being followed. You don't seem to have a clue how diplomacy works.Actually, if you are the Empire you enforce the terms of the treaty - you don't invite the Thalmor in to Skyrim and let them enforce it (with violence and torture - and impunity). Thats the problem here, the Empire can't even police itself. There is absolutely ZERO reason why the Thalmor should be allowed to set up a torture camp at Northwatch Keep with the Empires full knowledge - ZERO. Thats not diplomacy, in any form whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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