Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

 

I'm not sure if you're aware, but we don't care if the Empire dies. In fact, we acknowledge that it will.

 

You're insisting that it will, but only if the stormcloaks win. With skyrim brought back to the fold, the empire can witstand the next great war, at which point the white gold concordat is no more.

I dont know why you insist that the empire can't recover from its current troubles. I mean, how on earth would breaking the empire in 3 fix anything or increase it's collective millitary power? Especially with the Dominion ready to pounce?

 

In fact, in order for humans to live out of the Dominion's shadow, in the long run, some kind of human alliance with singular leadership (aka empire) must be in place. It's either Empire or Dominion really.

 

No, I'm insisting that the Empire will collapse. Full Stop. Admittedly, it will collapse faster if Skyrim leaves (being the bridge between Hi Rock and Cyrodiil), but it is better for Skyrim to leave now, and avoid the disaster of the Empire's imminent collapse.

 

And really, don;t call the Empire an 'alliance'. That said, an Alliance between Skyrim and Hammerfell will be able to fill the gap left by the Empire. it doesn't need to be led by 1 man (in fact, it being led by more than 1 people could, arguably, give it greater mobility and flexibility). Think of WW2. Were the Allies led by a single leader? At the same time, did the Wermacht have the capability to occupy and hold all of Europe and Northern Africa?

 

 

So I guess the Stormcloak mentality is screw the people in Cyrodiil and leave them to be ground under the Thalmor's heels. How is that any better than the Empire screwing over Hammerfell? Actually, how is that any different whatsoever?

 

I won't deny it, it is slightly hypocritical. Welcome to International politics my friend. Its one rule for one person, another rule for another.

 

That said, remember I stated that ultimately, the Northern Cities would fall into the Human sphere of influence, the Southwestern ones would be the center of the conflict.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Also, people arent just getting killed in the rebellion. Its just Nords and Legionnaires.

 

When the Stormcloaks took Whiterun only legionnaires died. And Whiterun guards, potentially a few Stormcloaks as well but no civilians.

 

 

 

They do speak of war crimes perpetrated by both sides in the grey beard's council, and theres also Ulfric's meltdown in Markarth. Regardless, every soldier killed in the war strenghtens the Dominion's position in Tamriel, and it was the stormcloaks who started rebelling, so they're directly responsible for all the killings.

 

Really? A revolution cannot occur without a revolutionary situation. The WGC banning Talos Worship, a huge crackdown on such worship (as seen in Markarth), abductions (which even Alvor admits happened before Ulfric started revolting), an economic depression, rampant corruption and cronyism. All of these are signs of a revolutionary situation.

 

Do not accuse the people of standing up against a system forcing them to endure abject poverty for the benefit of a political minority.

[893kira]

Seriously war of the Imperials and Stormcloak reminded me of Great Britain forcing its own India's forces to use a different gunpowder containing animal fat that is against to India's religion and began to revolt and won against an empire. Showing how corrupt are the aristocrat who control the India's trade! Also showing royal family are just tools and still being use today.

 

Also if the writer of Elder Scroll would based its civil war to our world history, Stormcloaks would definitely win reason more bodies and supplies like with US revolution. US suffered alot of defeats against Great Britains until Great Britain forces run out of supplies and bodies.Seriously if you don't believe Great Britain uses Mercenaries to help them in war. In World War 2 Soviets won against Nazi because of more bodies to spare. Stalin's general are indeed the best general ever holding stalingard. Its own special forces are in Siberia still fresh in war waiting for Japanese Invasion that never came. Removing Stalin's paranoia send all his best troops.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

My sources may not have been the best but I tried to find the right ones. All I can really say about Tiber was that his race and birth place are not known as solid fact. Everyone seems to have conspiracy theories regarding nearly anything in the TES universe. The fact remains that it doesnt matter what race Talos was, but that the Nords revere him and wont be told that they just arent allowed according to the elves (Whom they have battled throughout history).

 

Everything is skeptical. When it comes to Ulfric, he's not by any means perfect but he's a damn good man and I have respect for him. I lost my respect for General Tullius when he surrendered. Ulfric does not surrender and I think that shows the real Ulfric.

 

Using that as an example, The Nords are strong, the Empire is weak.

 

Why do people still side with the Empire, I ask myself.

 

- They dont hold the same values as me

- They dont understand the Nords and their culture

- They are quick to assumptions and agree with most propaganda

- They love the Empire and are blinded my their love for it to see its dead

- They refuse to give up an already concluded fate

 

The facts are there.

 

- The Nords have a chance at survival and freedom

- They are strong, mighty, powerful and free

- They have the balls to stand up for what they believe in

- They arent afraid of the suffering that will come and will face it and overcome it or die trying

- They know what they want

- They havent forced religious oppression on their people

- They have a leader and a general

- They respect there traditions and see that they are held in esteem

 

So overall that isnt a bias, its a warrant with backing as I have shown throughout this debate. I'll admit. I am biased but my arguments have evidence that support them and are there for warrants and not biased accusations. If you dont believe me look up the Tulmin argument format.

 

I might retire for a while, I have a bad migraine and it hurts to read as of the current moment. I will return though,

Edited February 26, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[fraquar]

For me it's cut and dry. Northwatch Keep.

 

For the Empire to allow the Thalmor free reign in otherwise sovereign Empire territory, letting them set up a torture camp and torture Empire citizens - thats the straw that breaks the camels back. This isn't some clandestine Thalmor operation here, this is being done with the Empires full knowledge.

 

I simply cannot back an Empire that allows that to happen on Skyrim soil, no way, no how.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

If I could "Like" your comment I would. @ fraquar

[pimpingreenhat]

Everything is skeptical. When it comes to Ulfric, he's not by any means perfect but he's a damn good man and I have respect for him. I lost my respect for General Tullius when he surrendered. Ulfric does not surrender and I think that shows the real Ulfric.

 

I seem to remember him surrendering twice, once to the Thalmor (at some point during the 1st Thalmor War) and once to the Legion (at the beginning of the events of TES:V). Tullius surrendered to save the Empire. Ulfric surrendered to save himself. Quite a coward, no?

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Oh and another thing. I seem to be seeing alot of Imperials say that the battle right before the beginning of the game is where the Stormcloaks surrendered and gave up without a fight. The Stormcloak soldier that greats you in Sovngarde proves otherwise. He was there, Ulfric was captured, he never surrendered. And also, during the great war, he was, once again, captured and tortured, I would like to see anyone in this forum go through that and not break, I have yet to go through SERE school but am looking forward to it. I would break, all of you would too. So that doesnt make him a coward.

 

Tullius does not surrender to save the Empire, he surrenders to save himself. Right before I beheaded him with my Nordic War Axe.

 

Tullius: "And if I surrender?"

Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."

Galmar: "That Empire is dead, and so are you."

Tullius: "So be it."

 

Im not referencing the great war when I say Tullius surrendered. We dont even know if he was in the great war. I assume he was due to his age and his rank but theres no proof.

 

Also, alot of Imperial arguments suggest that the Empire will eventually lift the ban on Talos worship. Well I have not seen any proof to that statement, as history has shown I see the opposite happening rather to what most Imperials like to think or believe. When one right is taken way, most likely (As history has shown) others will be taken away also. The thing about it is the Imperials like to blame the Stormcloaks for whats happening in Skyrim yet dont own up to allowing the Thalmor to kill the Nords and enforce their rule. Allowing another government to pursue its own goals in your country is what puts the Empire in a puppet state.

 

Therefore the Empire is a puppet of the Dominion, the Stormcloaks are a tool to help kill the Empire, thats undeniable. And I'm almost completely okay with that.

 

I would fight for the Empire if I though it was worth saving and from what it has done to the people of Skyrim and Cyrodiil it is no longer worth saving. Allowing it to exist is even wrong.

 

But first the Empire must leave Skyrim and the AD must be destroyed, then we can either fix the Empire or destroy it and make a new one.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[kradus]

No, I'm insisting that the Empire will collapse. Full Stop. Admittedly, it will collapse faster if Skyrim leaves (being the bridge between Hi Rock and Cyrodiil), but it is better for Skyrim to leave now, and avoid the disaster of the Empire's imminent collapse.

 

And really, don;t call the Empire an 'alliance'. That said, an Alliance between Skyrim and Hammerfell will be able to fill the gap left by the Empire. it doesn't need to be led by 1 man (in fact, it being led by more than 1 people could, arguably, give it greater mobility and flexibility). Think of WW2. Were the Allies led by a single leader? At the same time, did the Wermacht have the capability to occupy and hold all of Europe and Northern Africa?

 

Yeah, no, not without a reason. Regardless of whatever issues the empire is going through, they'd just be worsened if it broke in 3 pieces, especially if you're giving up Cyrodill's strategic advantage and menpower. So long as Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodill swear allegiance to the same ruller, the empire lives on. There's no reason why this isn't so, and you have the advantage of having all of their armies under the same command. No diplomatic crap when the war starts.

 

Btw, in the ww2 scenario, the allies hadn't been warring amongst themselfs before the rise of the 3rd Reich, and the germans where surrounded and outmunbered by the allies. So, it's not a similliar situation at all.

 

 

Really? A revolution cannot occur without a revolutionary situation. The WGC banning Talos Worship, a huge crackdown on such worship (as seen in Markarth), abductions (which even Alvor admits happened before Ulfric started revolting), an economic depression, rampant corruption and cronyism. All of these are signs of a revolutionary situation.

 

Do not accuse the people of standing up against a system forcing them to endure abject poverty for the benefit of a political minority.

 

Tell it to the forsworn.

I'd agree with you if it was simply nords vs empire, but the fact is, the stormcloaks are the minority. What about all of skyrim's citizens who didn't want the war? What about all the loyalist nords? The stormcloaks had a choice, like all the other nords, and they decided to start a war against their own that resulted in the death's of many. So yeah, they are responsible.

 

Alvor - "It's from that treaty that ended the great war remember? When the emperor was forced by the thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy, everyone still had their little shrine to Talos.

But then Ulfric and his 'sons of skyrim' started agitating about it, and sure enough the emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night, one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."

 

So, yeah, the persecutions started because of Ulfric and his men.

 

 

My sources may not have been the best but I tried to find the right ones. All I can really say about Tiber was that his race and birth place are not known as solid fact. Everyone seems to have conspiracy theories regarding nearly anything in the TES universe. The fact remains that it doesnt matter what race Talos was, but that the Nords revere him and wont be told that they just arent allowed according to the elves (Whom they have battled throughout history).

 

Everything is skeptical. When it comes to Ulfric, he's not by any means perfect but he's a damn good man and I have respect for him. I lost my respect for General Tullius when he surrendered. Ulfric does not surrender and I think that shows the real Ulfric.

 

Using that as an example, The Nords are strong, the Empire is weak.

 

Why do people still side with the Empire, I ask myself.

 

- They dont hold the same values as me - they certainly dont, neither does half of skyrim at least.

- They dont understand the Nords and their culture - even the thalmor know enouth to manipulate you

- They are quick to assumptions and agree with most propaganda - who, the stormcloaks?

- They love the Empire and are blinded my their love for it to see its dead - The fact is loyalty defines the empire. So long as so many are willing to fight for it, the empire lives.

- They refuse to give up an already concluded fate - Again, so long as it's very people serve the empire, it's alive and kicking.

 

The facts are there.

 

- The Nords have a chance at survival and freedom - If they stick with the empire they do.

- They are strong, mighty, powerful and free

- They have the balls to stand up for what they believe in - Yes, many stand up for the empire.

- They arent afraid of the suffering that will come and will face it and overcome it or die trying - dragging every man woman and child down the same path.

- They know what they want

- They havent forced religious oppression on their people - Tell it to Madanach.

- They have a leader and a general

- They respect there traditions and see that they are held in esteem - Yet Ulfric abuses the ancient customs to kill a man who has little chance of winning, and by replacing the jarls by force, so the moot will vote him king.

 

So overall that isnt a bias, its a warrant with backing as I have shown throughout this debate. I'll admit. I am biased but my arguments have evidence that support them and are there for warrants and not biased accusations. If you dont believe me look up the Tulmin argument format.

 

I might retire for a while, I have a bad migraine and it hurts to read as of the current moment. I will return though,

Edited February 26, 2013 by kradus

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

And the Empire is not to blame? Wow thats ballsy. If it takes the people to wake the people up then so be it. The Empire will not win against the Dominion even if it wins in Skyrim. Just because you now forced a people to submit to your rule doesn't mean your unstoppable. It just makes it easier for the Thalmor to take them out.

 

Skyrim alone stands a much better chance against the elves than anyone else. The Nords (Stormcloaks) have more will to fight the Dominion than the Empire. The Empire will surrender again if things dont start great for them, to save themselves simply. The Nords will fight them and keep fighting until either the AD is defeated or the Nords are.

 

But now more so than ever the Empire is even less capable than it ever has been. No one seems to argue against me when I state that the Empire is now in a power struggle but just seem to ignore it. Well, own up to it. Your emperor is dead. His council members sought his assassination. There will be a struggle for power among the Elder Council and will result in even more strife within the Empire. The legion cant just do as it wants. The Emperor must command it to do so. Without an Emperor there is no legion essentially. Someone might rise to power in Cyrodiil like Titus Mede I did but that would mean war just like he dealt with when the Empire lost lands to the AD 200 years ago. So all in all this Empire died with Titus Mede II.