Imperial VS Stormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I wont keep faith in an Empire that banns mine.

[StormHammer81]

@Stormcloak117

 

 

I wont keep faith in an Empire that banns mine.

 

Agreed.

Edited February 28, 2013 by StormHammer81

[StormHammer81]

@Stormcloak117

 

 

I wont keep faith in an Empire that banns mine.

 

Neither will I. Time for a change, I'm afraid.

Edited February 28, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Echoside]

 

So your attacking me again? Okay. That doesnt bother me.

 

The Vikings werent self sufficient but my example was with the matter of trade. It will exist no matter what.

 

I gave a theory as to what might happen in the next war. Like I said Bethesda doesnt like to make things simple (This forum is the perfect example) Bethesda like to keep us guessing. Who's to say the Dragonborn doesnt spawn daedra to kill the AD's army? Who's to say Alinor doesnt just all the sudden sink or something else catastrophic. Im just saying these things are possibilities.

 

My apologies on saying you missed Falkreath, I must have missed it. I dont ignore arguments. I read all of them.

 

The fact of the matter is, is that the Empire cannot support all the issues its facing. Skyrim has a few but still can manage itself.

 

And yes, Skyrim has temperate climates as well, very lush in Deer, Chickens, Cows, Mammoths, Elk, and pheasants. Skyrim has the means to support itself and shows that it can and has before.

 

Address all the issues you can, and point out where my argument isnt as strong and it will help me in the end. Remember there are 3 of you and one of me. Im not b*tching Im just making it evident.

I don't have to address any of these because I already did. I already addressed the hunting. Already addressed the temperate Skyrim holds and their relation to the province's overall food logistics which at their absolute best even out with no surplus (better not have a bad harvest). You aren't bringing up anything new but you are repeatedly bringing up new tangents that really aren't relevant. I even went in-depth on this and you're still just saying "nuh-uh" as a rebuttal which is hardly convincing.

 

We can argue "what if's" all day about how the war will turn out but it doesn't lead anywhere because for every pro-Stormcloak what-if we can easily invent an Empire what-if.

 

You also ignore quite a bit of logic and reasoning.

 

One seasons: Windhelm has farms thus implies a warm enough season to plant and grow crops.

 

Two Unequal climate zones: Solitude is the town farthest north of in all Skyrim and shows to be temperate while Dawnstar, Winterhold, and Windhelm show almost tundra like climates dispite being more south then Solitude.

 

Three the general freaky geography of Tameriel as a whole: Hammerfell aird rocky crags and desert, Skyrim Northern temperate zone, Morrowind Ashy wastelands to tropic like jungles, Black Marsh huge swamp, Cyrodil southern mild temperate zone, Valenwood massive forest, Elsywer desert to amazonian type jungles... None of it conforms to logic.

 

Like I said Bethseda really doesn't focus on food logistics or logical climate assignments.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

Sajuukhar9000, Skyrim is not dependent on Cyrodiil for food. Theres no proof of this anywhere - therefore completely wrong. Thats a bias, a warrant without backing is a bias. Skyrim produces it's own food and other than in Solitude (Maybe) theres no mention of food shortages anywhere. So recalculate.

 

No. What did Sebil tell you? She's served Skyrim for many years and it's people like her who understand how to manage Skyrim.

 

Besides, you don't honestly expect a rugged-mountainous country, with half it's landmass covered with snow and ice to be able to grow a substantial amount of food do you?

 

Okay, after most of the day at University, I'm back to find over ten more pages of debate, which I'm not interested in sifting through. i will address this point.

 

Sybelle Stentor says this:

 

...the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people.

 

Now, lets analyse this quote. Starting with the term 'our people'. 'Our people' can be used as a form of political jargon, really to mean 'our government' which can be the exact opposite of the people. Whether or not Sybille was refferring to the actual people of SKyrim, or the Imperial Government of it cannot be determined. However, it is irrelevant when looking at the conditions of which she made this statement. She said food aid is valuable, not that Skyrim is unable to provide for itself, there is a difference (Zimbabwe, for example, was the food basket of Africa, if I remember correct). So why would Skyrim need food aid, if it is capable of sustaining itself? The answer is the war. War causes shortages of food. Even the most advanced economies have been forced to ration food during times of severe conflict (Britain in WW2, for example). this is made only more pressing when most of the food producing holds in Skyrim are either neutral (Whiterun), or occupied by the stormcloaks (Riften and Windhelm). So with this, we can conclude that Imperial Skyrim does indeed require food aid from the Empire at the current time.

 

But that is not to say that Skyrim cannot provide for itself. On the contrary, there is evidence that it can. The PGE 3rd Edition states Skyrim has always been a powerful province, with a large population (meaning for it to have survived the interregnum and retain such power, it would require a means of supporting itself). then, in game representation gives a similar suggestion. Numerous Nordic farmers make comments about how, while farming in Skyrim is tough, the Nords have done it, continue to do it and have now come to the point where they have an advanced Agricultural industry. This is further evident in the sheer number of farms in some area's, and the success of a number of powerful farmers (Nazeem, the Battle-Borns, Rorik and the Snow-Shods, to name a few).

[Echoside]

RighthandofSithis as the more or less neutral party I'd like to point out that the original point of that argument has long passed, namely Skyrim ability to support and field a large army without the assistance of outside aid and devolved into a mere argument of trying to justify video games with laws of reality.

 

I even went and more less destroyed the main part of the argument by actually defining the amount of farms present both Cyrodil(oblivion) and Skyrim(Skyrim :P) not being enough to support their own populations let alone others. They didn't seem very receptive to the fact Bethesda does not figure food logistics into the games or logical climate formats.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Echoside

[RighthandofSithis]

RighthandofSithis as the more or less neutral party I'd like to point out that the original point of that argument has long passed, namely Skyrim ability to support and field a large army without the assistance of outside aid and devolved into a mere argument of trying to justify video games with laws of reality.

 

I even went and more less destroyed the main part of the argument by actually defining the amount of farms present both Cyrodil(oblivion) and Skyrim(Skyrim :P) not being enough to support their own populations let alone others. They didn't seem very receptive to the fact Bethesda does not figure food logistics into the games or logical climate formats.

 

Firstly, I remember when I called myself an unbiased Observer. i was even praised once for my balanced decisions. I'm not sure if I could consider myself as such anymore :confused:. Sort of sad, really.

 

Well, i'm done being sentimental. As a few others around here will tell you, gameplay=/=lore. That is why there are only a few hundred NPCs, and only a few farms and plantations. So obviously a census of information is not possible. However, when you can't study the whole situation, you study a part of it (a sample). I feel that game representation can be justifiably used as a sample of information.

 

And regardless of the gameplay=/=lore thing, statements by NPCs are supposed to represent in game lore (although apparently they sometimes don;t fit the weirdness of MK). Thus when Farmers make comments about having already established successful farms, and when Galmar suggests that Skyrim has a relatively large number of farmers, then we are inclined to believe these comments.

[Echoside]

 

RighthandofSithis as the more or less neutral party I'd like to point out that the original point of that argument has long passed, namely Skyrim ability to support and field a large army without the assistance of outside aid and devolved into a mere argument of trying to justify video games with laws of reality.

 

I even went and more less destroyed the main part of the argument by actually defining the amount of farms present both Cyrodil(oblivion) and Skyrim(Skyrim :P) not being enough to support their own populations let alone others. They didn't seem very receptive to the fact Bethesda does not figure food logistics into the games or logical climate formats.

 

Firstly, I remember when I called myself an unbiased Observer. i was even praised once for my balanced decisions. I'm not sure if I could consider myself as such anymore :confused:. Sort of sad, really.

 

Well, i'm done being sentimental. As a few others around here will tell you, gameplay=/=lore. That is why there are only a few hundred NPCs, and only a few farms and plantations. So obviously a census of information is not possible. However, when you can't study the whole situation, you study a part of it (a sample). I feel that game representation can be justifiably used as a sample of information.

 

And regardless of the gameplay=/=lore thing, statements by NPCs are supposed to represent in game lore (although apparently they sometimes don;t fit the weirdness of MK). Thus when Farmers make comments about having already established successful farms, and when Galmar suggests that Skyrim has a relatively large number of farmers, then we are inclined to believe these comments.

 

I can call myself that because neither side of this debate will ever come ahead till the next game is released and it's all history. That and I'm pretty sure that either, the Aldmeri Dominion is going to win or Bethesda is going to grant the Empire some miracle that restores their place while ignoring all logic and reason to the otherwise.

 

I'm not saying that's wrong but their overlooking a number of major things if you start mix reality with fantasy. Such as seasons, which aren't in game because of the work it would involve for little more then an immersive boost. Not to mention by that logic then the numbers being mentioned to be field via armies would significantly smaller, Probably no more then a 500 or so max a country, if they want to keep a functioning infrastructure. That a most of Skyrim's population would be Bandits and rouge mages... They would out number the townsfolk by good margin.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Echoside

[Kayyyleb]

RighthandofSithis as the more or less neutral party I'd like to point out that the original point of that argument has long passed, namely Skyrim ability to support and field a large army without the assistance of outside aid and devolved into a mere argument of trying to justify video games with laws of reality.

 

I even went and more less destroyed the main part of the argument by actually defining the amount of farms present both Cyrodil(oblivion) and Skyrim(Skyrim :P) not being enough to support their own populations let alone others. They didn't seem very receptive to the fact Bethesda does not figure food logistics into the games or logical climate formats.

Basically I can agree to this. It's a dead end argument that even if won for one side or another won't impact anyone's choice.

[StormHammer81]

 

Echoside, on 27 Feb 2013 - 02:08, said:http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_images/underground/snapback.png

 

 

 

 

RighthandofSithis as the more or less neutral party I'd like to point out that the original point of that argument has long passed, namely Skyrim ability to support and field a large army without the assistance of outside aid and devolved into a mere argument of trying to justify video games with laws of reality.

 

I even went and more less destroyed the main part of the argument by actually defining the amount of farms present both Cyrodil(oblivion) and Skyrim(Skyrim :P) not being enough to support their own populations let alone others. They didn't seem very receptive to the fact Bethesda does not figure food logistics into the games or logical climate formats.

Basically I can agree to this. It's a dead end argument that even if won for one side or another won't impact anyone's choice.

 

Also agreed. This can be successfully argued either way.