Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LithiumPower]

Jorlief.

 

I wasn't aware of any other imperial vs. stormcloak debate. I've seen Stormhammer change his mind twice in this thread.

 

I'd like to draw attention to the contrast between Tullius/Rikke's speech post battle and Ulfric's, now isn't that interesting.

[Kayyyleb]

I'd like to draw attention to the contrast between Tullius/Rikke's speech post battle and Ulfric's, now isn't that interesting.

What about them specifically?

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

@Lithium Flower

 

Thanks, my TV is sh*tty.

[LithiumPower]

The imperial speech is arrogant and reeks of oppression. Tullius focuses on what they will do to Ulfric, how he was a traitor. He further warns the crowd against rebellion, how they will stamp out dissidence and then promises monetary reward/bonuses to his soldiers. He doesn't talk about rebuilding, or taking the fight to the Thalmor, no he only reminds everyone that to rebel against the empire is to invite death.

 

Then as soon as it's over he wonders if he hasn't created a martyr, recognising on some level that Ulfric's cause reverberates with the population and might be taken up by someone else.

 

Ulfric on the other hand doesn't even mention Tullius. His speech focuses on the people whom he calls 'true heroes' and on rebuilding, of the people's right of self-determination. He throws in an honourable mention of the Dragonborn and refuses the mantle of High King, a formality agreed but he could have just as easily assumed it - no one would have objected. He grants amnesty to Elisef and reminds everyone the true enemy is still the Dominion - something conspicuously absent from Tullius' speech.

[StormHammer81]

What was once a weak and dieing Empire has been reforged into something of Legend.

 

The Empire needed this Civil War, without Ulfric's uprising the Empire would have decayed into obscurity due to inactivity.

 

Now, thru the fires of war with brother against brother, the old, rusty, un-tempered blade of Talos has been reforged into something the Thalmor will fear.

 

The Civil War in Skyrim has prepared us for the next war and has turned around our decaying military and economy.

 

If the Empire can survive a Civil War over Religion, then we can handle anything the Thalmor throw at us.

 

Galmar was the only one who wanted the Civil War, Ulfric was just along for the ride.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Edited March 3, 2013 by StormHammer81

[RighthandofSithis]

What was once a weak and dieing Empire has been reforged into something of Legend.

 

The Empire needed this Civil War, without Ulfric's uprising the Empire would have decayed into obscurity due to inactivity.

 

Now, thru the fires of war with brother against brother, the old, rusty, un-tempered blade of Talos has been reforged into something the Thalmor will fear.

 

The Civil War in Skyrim has prepared us for the next war and has turned around our decaying military and economy.

 

If the Empire can survive a Civil War over Religion, then we can handle anything the Thalmor throw at us.

 

Galmar was the only one who wanted the Civil War, Ulfric was just along for the ride.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

Dude, you have no evidence that an Imperial Victory in the Civil War will turn it around. In fact, I'd say that's preposterous.

 

Victory in the Civil war does nothing to address the violence in Cyrodiil, or to rebuild its economy or infrastructure. Even imperial supporters in game say the Empire is in dire straights (Rikke, and Brina Merilis).

 

And I would certainly not comment on the capabilities of either the Empire or the Dominion until we get hard facts about numbers on both sides, but I would still assume that another war would cause their economy to collapse completely. The Dominion may not even need fight to win the war!

[Kayyyleb]

The imperial speech is arrogant and reeks of oppression. Tullius focuses on what they will do to Ulfric, how he was a traitor. He further warns the crowd against rebellion, how they will stamp out dissidence and then promises monetary reward/bonuses to his soldiers. He doesn't talk about rebuilding, or taking the fight to the Thalmor, no he only reminds everyone that to rebel against the empire is to invite death.

 

Then as soon as it's over he wonders if he hasn't created a martyr, recognising on some level that Ulfric's cause reverberates with the population and might be taken up by someone else.

 

Ulfric on the other hand doesn't even mention Tullius. His speech focuses on the people whom he calls 'true heroes' and on rebuilding, of the people's right of self-determination. He throws in an honourable mention of the Dragonborn and refuses the mantle of High King, a formality agreed but he could have just as easily assumed it - no one would have objected. He grants amnesty to Elisef and reminds everyone the true enemy is still the Dominion - something conspicuously absent from Tullius' speech.

Well first off a victory speech to your men is expected to be arrogant nor does his speech really reflect his personality or position. He's giving a speech out of necessity but if you ever talk to the guy you know he isn't a bloodthirsty warmonger by any stretch of the imagination which ironically is a closer match to Ulfric despite his fancy speeches. The Empire just won a war...that's as good a time as any to gloat and Tullius is congratulating his men to bolster morale. Professional soldiers like the Legion are paid to kill. That's their job so when you win a war I think a bonus is in order.

 

The punishment for betrayal is typically death in cases like this so there's nothing surprising about hunting down the dissidents. However he also mentions to Rikke that they both would much rather the remaining Stormcloaks return to their homes and let peace prevail. He has no interest in hunting down every last person involved in the rebellion and executing them. Most of Skyrim is of the same mind, they want the war to end and are rather neutral on caring whose side wins so long as the fighting stops. He just wants the Civil War to end so the Empire can focus on the Thalmor instead of killing itself. Tullius himself may not mention rebuilding in his speech but the jarl he puts in charge of Windhelm makes it his top priority to rebuild and move past the conflict and he assigns Rikke to doing the same thing so you can't say he isn't in favor of helping Skyrim rebuild. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Ulfric's false humility is little more than a show. He already knows the Moot is going to choose him as high king since he ousted the Legion and pretending to be humble by not outright assuming the title immediately is little more than a publicity stunt and a transparently meaningless one at that. He all but says exactly that to Galmar in hushed tones right after his grand speech. Becoming high king was his goal from the very start. As for mentioning the Dragonborn, yeah it's nice of him but frankly my Dragonborn didn't choose the Empire for recognition but because he/she felt it was the right thing to do. Though it can be noted that Tullius also thanks the Dragonborn privately after his speech and again if you talk to him at Castle Dour so he recognizes the key role you played on his side as well. And to say that it's "conspicuous" that Tullius doesn't mention fighting the Thalmor is rather naive. If you know anything about Tullius he hates the Thalmor as much as any Stormcloak.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Ulfric also thanks the Dragonborn after his speech.

 

Like Lithium says, Tullius mentions in hushed tones after the speech that the Empire - may - attempt another war with the AD. Ulfric makes it clear that this will be the goal.

 

Who cares if Ulfric seeks the throne. Talos sought to be Emperor. Ambition is irrelevant in this case because with Ulfric in power the Nords get what they want.

 

The thing is, is that the Empire obviously is only seeking its own preservation rather than doing the right thing. Which is why we are at this point.

 

The Imperials only semi - respected Nordic tradition up until it threatened their overall position in Skyrim. Then they intervened to secure the interests of the Empire rather than look out for the good of the people.

 

The Empire is ignoring the troubles in its Capitol to occupy a land of innocent people to attempt to gain military security.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Imperial Jarls -

 

Maven Black Briar isnt interested in rebuilding.

 

Sidgeir isnt interested in rebuilding.

 

Igmund isnt interested. He allows the Thalmor to roam Markarth!!!!! And the rest of the Reach!

 

Elisif isnt interested in rebuilding

 

Balgruuf and Brunwulf are and Brina Merilis are the exceptions.

 

Idgrod Raven Crone isnt interested in rebuilding.

 

Kralder is more interested in gossip.

 

 

Stormcloak Jarls -

 

Vignar is interested in rebuilding

 

Dengeir is interested in rebuilding

 

Laila Law giver tries to rebuild

 

Korir, he doesnt make mention on it but wants glory for Winterhold.

 

Elisif, well she is Ulfrics puppet really.

 

Sorli the Builder, rebuilds. And builds.

 

Thongvor Silver blood rebuilds. He hates the Forsworn, although his brother is their boss essentially.

 

Ulfric, he rebuilds.

 

I personally cant stand Skald the Elder, he's such a b*tch.

Edited March 4, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[LithiumPower]

A victory speech is expected to be arrogant? Why shouldn't it be conciliatory? Why shouldn't it be gracious? It doesn't represent his personality or position - of course it does. That's precisely the purpose of speech here - to establish position and character. That speech is Tullius summarising for his men the meaning and significance of the victory they have just achieved. He's reiterating what killing Ulfric and capturing Windhelm means to him and to the Empire and he doesn't address any of the factors frequently cited in the Empire's favour - he doesn't tell his men they have kept the Empire united, or achieved a unified front to face the real enemy. The message he delivers to his soldiers and the people of Windhelm gathered there is:

- The Empire will make an example out of the man the people of Windhelm have considered a hero.
- The Empire will stamp out dissidence and insurrection whenever they find it.
- The Empire will install a jarl who is above all faithful to them and imperial troops will punish anyone found harbouring any thought of rebellion.
- The Empire will reward loyalty with gold - implying as you put it, that the imperial soldiers are akin to mercenaries, repeating the theme of 'imperial gold buys loyalty' we've come across before.

This is the final take-home message of the entire imperial campaign and it's precisely what Stormcloaks have been warning about - that the Empire only cares about reinforcing its rule - through suppression and bribery. After the speech, he reflects on what's next on his agenda - it's not rebuilding, or dealing with the Thalmor, no he fears he may have created a martyr and he declares that he's going to continue to root out stormcloaks and put them to the sword. It's Rikke who believes remaining stormcloaks will return to their homes, not Tullius. Tullius wants retribution.

Rikke: "There's bound to be resistance. There are many Stormcloak camps tucked away in the hills. They'll no doubt strike whenever and wherever they can. But without Ulfric to inflame their passions, they'll settle down and return to their homes eventually."
Tullius: "I pray you're right, Legate. In the meantime, we'll continue to root them out and put them to the sword."

All this stands in stark contrast to Ulfric's speech.

Ulfric's entire end-of-campaign behaviour is utterly different. He doesn't ask Rikke to surrender, he offers her amnesty, he asks her to leave - if there was ever a moment for him to display his true ugly colours it was this - he's not in the public eye, there's no one to witness except his mortal enemies and his staunchest allies.

His take-home message to his soldiers and the conquered people of Solitude is this:

- that the true heros of skyrim are its people who stood up for their rights.
- that this war was about Skyrim's right to choose it's own battles and determine it's own future.
- that he will not accept the mantle of High King without the moot.
- that he will not seek revenge on Elisif for her support of the Empire, that his troops will garrison to protect the city from imperial retribution
- that Skyrim will focus on rebuilding
- that the true enemy is the Aldmeri Dominion

After the speech, he tells his closest confidantes that the empire and those who fought for it are not his concern, that he plans to rebuild the country and prepare to fight the Aldmeri Dominion.

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."
Galmar: "The Imperials aren't going to leave us alone. They still have camps in the hills. They'll continue to strike out at us, whenever and wherever they can.
Ulfric: "I'm not afraid of the remnants of the Legion, in time they'll all give up and go home. What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores. We must be prepared to face them."
Galmar: "Aye."
Ulfric: (to you) "And of course, we couldn't have done it without you. May the gods preserve you."
Galmar: "May the gods preserve us all."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. We've still much work to do."

 

Where is his duplicity? What reason has he given us throughout the campaign to doubt his veracity? Where is the false humility? Everyone is aware he's going to be elected High King, including himself, but that fact doesn't make him scrap the process altogether. That's the point of an election.

 

Edit: HighKing, didn't see your post before I hit submit but actually, to the best of my knowledge, Tullius makes no mention of taking the fight to the Dominion, not even as an aside to the player later.

 

Edit 2: Added some dialogue from uesp.net because I didn't recall it off the top of my head earlier.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Lithium Flower