Imperial VS Stormcloak

[kradus]

 

But anyway, Ulfric hasnt begun mass murders of the Dunmer and theres no evidence that he will start either.

 

 

I didn't say such a thing, those where innocent reach civilians. And this whole situation mirrors what went on in germany in the forty's, when many loved Hitler despite the atrocities he commited. Im not saying the two men are alike, though he was also quite good at making speeches.

 

 

Ulfric is busy with the war and cannot solve all the problems ( he isnt perfect as I have made clear)

 

He's not too busy to give protection from outlaws to nords, as Brunwulf makes it clear. While Dunmer/Khajiit/Argonians are left to their own devices. What kind of person makes that sort of distinction between races? Seriosuly guys, the info is right there in the game, dont be selective about it.

 

 

The Argonians have a history of being assassins, thieves, bandits (every race has some as well). If I were Ulfric I would allow Argonians into my city either. And one of my characters is an Argonian.

 

See, you're discriminating them right there. If you'll just look at riften, the most corrupt city in Skyrim, you'll see that the argonians there are well adapted working people(in fact, the thieve's guild is mostly human). One of them is a recouvering scooma addict, who simply wants to have a job and make a living. The difference is that the Argonians there aren't forced to live outside the city with only the worse jobs available to them.

 

 

I adore Ulfric because he has repeatedly shown that he is willing to do what he has to for his people. Ulfric is an honest racist. Tullius is not. Tullius obviously thinks he is better than Rikke, we all know that he's not, he sees the Nords as a resource and not as a people.

 

General Tullius doesn't think he's better than the nords, he doesn't undertand them at first because he's not one. But:

 

"I can't say I'll ever get used to the damned cold, or understand these nords, but I've come to respect them. The harsheness of skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self"

 

And his attitude towards Rikke is in no way exessive, he talks to her both as a friend and a superior officer. If you've been to the army, you'll notice that being blunt with your subordinates is the way to go.

 

 

Ulfric sees them as people and treats them like it. However he did put all the citizens to the sword but so did TM II, Im not say "Its okay because Titus did it too." Im just pointing out that Ulfric isnt alone.

 

The difference is that no one here idealizes Titus Mede II, despite siding with him. That's part of being a free thinker.

 

 

 

The Dunmer are guilty of putting pride before their own people.

 

Then by that line of thought, the stormcloaks are also guilty of putting pride before their own people, but they actually started a war most of the nords didnt ask for, and where many would die from it, and as a consequence of it.

 

 

How would they be divided if the Stormcloaks win? They are attempting, as we speak, to gain alliances. They arent to prideful to see that alone Skyrim will have trouble. They are willing to die to be free though. We look at the Battle of Thermopylae and use it as a basis for military strategy everywhere. Even though it was a defeat. They Spartans stood up against Tyranny and lost. But the fact that they stood up against it is what put them down in history.

 

As you know well, I've stated several times, that the Stormcloaks will hardly be able to ally with anyone besides the Reguards, because of their previous history with everyone else. You can't expect someone to be your ally after winning a war against them. This includes the nords themselfs.

 

And when it comes to Thermophillae, those where greek phallanxes vs persian infantry. In skyrim you'd have stormcloaks vs thalmor, and the Thalmor can break an enemy formation in many different ways. A simple fear spell, and the Stormcloaks would be remembered for the wrong reasons.

 

 

I would rather the Stormcloaks lose the next war and all die than side with the Empire. After what it has done it doesnt deserve to continue.

 

I would rather not, we're in this for the people, not for ourselfs. And the empire itself isn't directly responsible for what an emperor decisions. You can't condemn humanity to slavery and genocide by Thalmor hands just because you don't agree with the emperor.

 

 

If you were a racist, how on earth would you allow a Dunmer bard to ply their trade in what is pretty much otherwise hallowed ground for a Nord - Candlehearth Hall - a meadhall???? Seriously, a Dunmer singing Nord ballads while you are trying to socialize and get AWAY from the Dunmer?

 

Being a bard is a poorly paid job. And put yourself in her shoes, singing ballads about the people who dislike you, to the very same. She must have been desperate for cash and warmth.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

But anyway, Ulfric hasnt begun mass murders of the Dunmer and theres no evidence that he will start either.

 

 

I didn't say such a thing, those where innocent reach civilians. And this whole situation mirrors what went on in germany in the forty's, when many loved Hitler despite the atrocities he commited. Im not saying the two men are alike, though he was also quite good at making speeches.

 

>>>

Ulfric is busy with the war and cannot solve all the problems ( he isnt perfect as I have made clear)

 

He's not too busy to give protection from outlaws to nords, as Brunwulf makes it clear. While Dunmer/Khajiit/Argonians are left to their own devices. What kind of person makes that sort of distinction between races? Seriosuly guys, the info is right there in the game, dont be selective about it.

 

 

The Argonians have a history of being assassins, thieves, bandits (every race has some as well). If I were Ulfric I would allow Argonians into my city either. And one of my characters is an Argonian.

 

See, you're discriminating them right there. If you'll just look at riften, the most corrupt city in Skyrim, you'll see that the argonians there are well adapted working people(in fact, the thieve's guild is mostly human). One of them is a recouvering scooma addict, who simply wants to have a job and make a living. The difference is that the Argonians there aren't forced to live outside the city with only the worse jobs available to them.

 

 

I adore Ulfric because he has repeatedly shown that he is willing to do what he has to for his people. Ulfric is an honest racist. Tullius is not. Tullius obviously thinks he is better than Rikke, we all know that he's not, he sees the Nords as a resource and not as a people.

 

General Tullius doesn't think he's better than the nords, he doesn't undertand them at first because he's not one. But:

 

"I can't say I'll ever get used to the damned cold, or understand these nords, but I've come to respect them. The harsheness of skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self"

 

And his attitude towards Rikke is in no way exessive, he talks to her both as a friend and a superior officer. If you've been to the army, you'll notice that being blunt with your subordinates is the way to go.

 

 

Ulfric sees them as people and treats them like it. However he did put all the citizens to the sword but so did TM II, Im not say "Its okay because Titus did it too." Im just pointing out that Ulfric isnt alone.

 

The difference is that no one here idealizes Titus Mede II, despite siding with him. That's part of being a free thinker.

 

 

 

The Dunmer are guilty of putting pride before their own people.

 

Then by that line of thought, the stormcloaks are also guilty of putting pride before their own people, but they actually started a war most of the nords didnt ask for, and where many would die from it, and as a consequence of it.

 

 

How would they be divided if the Stormcloaks win? They are attempting, as we speak, to gain alliances. They arent to prideful to see that alone Skyrim will have trouble. They are willing to die to be free though. We look at the Battle of Thermopylae and use it as a basis for military strategy everywhere. Even though it was a defeat. They Spartans stood up against Tyranny and lost. But the fact that they stood up against it is what put them down in history.

 

As you know well, I've stated several times, that the Stormcloaks will hardly be able to ally with anyone besides the Reguards, because of their previous history with everyone else. You can't expect someone to be your ally after winning a war against them. This includes the nords themselfs.

 

And when it comes to Thermophillae, those where greek phallanxes vs persian infantry. In skyrim you'd have stormcloaks vs thalmor, and the Thalmor can break an enemy formation in many different ways. A simple fear spell, and the Stormcloaks would be remembered for the wrong reasons.

 

 

I would rather the Stormcloaks lose the next war and all die than side with the Empire. After what it has done it doesnt deserve to continue.

 

I would rather not, we're in this for the people, not for ourselfs. And the empire itself isn't directly responsible for what an emperor decisions. You can't condemn humanity to slavery and genocide by Thalmor hands just because you don't agree with the emperor.

 

 

If you were a racist, how on earth would you allow a Dunmer bard to ply their trade in what is pretty much otherwise hallowed ground for a Nord - Candlehearth Hall - a meadhall???? Seriously, a Dunmer singing Nord ballads while you are trying to socialize and get AWAY from the Dunmer?

 

Being a bard is a poorly paid job. And put yourself in her shoes, singing ballads about the people who dislike you, to the very same. She must have been desperate for cash and warmth.

 

 

Well, I'm not about to clear Ulfric from anything. In my view, he does have his faults, which in RL I would oppose. However, The Nords at one point allied with the Dunmer (who they have a much worse history with).

 

Also, the issue of magic in warfare is an interesting one, because we can allude to what the Thalmor can do, but when given their tactical history, we know they never use illusion magic in warfare. The use of a fear spell is actually contradicted, as the Nords are hailed as heroes who held their line while being attacked from the front and rear (and if the thalmor used illusion magics, then the Nords would most definitely have routed).

 

And don't say that the Nords won't use a Phalanx. While RL history and TES history sometimes don;t overlap on such matters, we know that the Germanic tribes were quite adept in the use of the Phalanx (Book 1 of Caesar's Gallic War), and said phalanx was just as effective as that of the Greeks (meaning that in Pale Pass, it would probably hold its line).

 

Also, as I say often, stop blaming Ulfric for starting the war. Revolution is the result of a revolutionary situation, which is what we can see in Skyrim. The WGC, a ruined economy, a long painful war (in recent history), the outlaw of religion (because imagine if the ideal you passionately support were made illegal and punishable by concentration camps) etc etc. It was only a matter of time before someone got pissed enough with it all.

 

And being a bard is a low paying job, true, but one that is actually well respected by the Nords. If ulfric was intentionally a racist, he probably wouldn't like that idea.

 

Similarly, the Markarth incident was an act of war. War is not friendly, nor does it differentiate between militant or civilian (as Bradley Manning has shown). In a Feudal system, atrocities in war are the norm. We should not be surprised by them.

Edited March 6, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[kradus]

I mentioned fear as an example, but destruction magic will do just fine against an undermanned force. Back in the great war the empire had a bigger army, able to match the Dominion in the open, and had their own battlemages. So that's not comparable to a thermophilae situation, where the Thalmor would just focus their fireballs and whatnot at the enemy.

And I will indeed keep holding Ulfric and the stormcloaks responsible for starting the war, especially when most of the people in Skyrim didn't want it.

 

edit: And Ulfric didn't even try to talk to Torygg. Sybille said Torygg admired him, and might have done something about the empire if Ulfric asked him, but Ulfric decidedto take the bloody path. It's his fault hands down.

Edited March 6, 2013 by kradus

[Kayyyleb]

edit: And Ulfric didn't even try to talk to Torygg. Sybille said Torygg admired him, and might have done something about the empire if Ulfric asked him, but Ulfric decidedto take the bloody path. It's his fault hands down.

 

Indeed. Ulfric loudly boasts about fighting for Skyrim and the people but if that's what it was really about he quite likely could've gotten it through diplomacy. His real goal is to take the throne for himself and he's just duping his followers into believing otherwise.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I will do whats right no matter what. Thats the difference. Im prejudice against people in real life. I hate lazy no good pieces of crap and would rather they suffer than ever lift a finger to help them (This isnt an attack on you, just want to make a point.)

Yes, the situation in Skyrim isnt just Ulfric making the choice alone. Obviously he has followers and his people (The people of Eastmarch) asked for war, for justice. So they let Ulfric start the Rebellion. There are plenty of people within Imperial holds that want war against the Empire. There are also people in Stormcloak holds that dont, but the majority rules. In Norse Culture there is an event called the "Thing" (Not to creative), in which the people of the land meet and the Jarl (Earl) (By real accounts) deals with business within the land and makes decisions based on what the people vote for. Its an aspect of democracy in a monarchy. It was allowed for women to be involved to considering within the culture women were expected to do just as muck work as men. The Nordic culture is based off of this. So he people of Eastmarch (the majority) wanted a war. A mans duty is to his family first. Ulfrics people are his family.Half of Skyrim wants this war. Theres no real majority in either direction.

And if your accusing me of generalizing then yes Its true I did. ( I cant really deny it considering its in text haha) But its a stereotype thats true.

A real leader knows his men (And women) very well and would respect their voice in a matter that would determine a major decision. But that being said the man and women under his or her command will no just shout what they believe. They wait until the Sergeant or Lieutenant, or whomever asks for their advice. Thats real leadership. Lead from the back in order to watch your men.

The Stormcloaks are angry Nords who either served in the Empire or are suffering from the results of the treaty. If its the Stormcloaks fault for starting the war then its the Empire's fault for giving them a reason to. The Empire is not blameless, they are just as guilty for many, many things in its history. The Nords stuck with the Empire through a lot and now the Empire has turned its back on the Nords of Skyrim. To just sit by and let things happen isnt right either. The Nords have a past of fighting the elves. History has shown that if leaders and the men under their command are determined enough to win then they can. The American revolution showed us that much. India when Gandhi wanted independence used civil disobedience. Several other wars are good examples as well. Vietnam for instance.

Skyrim shows that it could not be easily taken over. There are a total of 5 places to enter Skyrim. 4 of which are through mountain passes. Skyrim is a rocky, mountainous country where you must enter through one of the few mountain passes. Dunmeth Pass, Pale Pass, the pass into Morrowind through the Rift, the Pass in Falkreath Hold in Hammerfell. So the AD would have to go through those passes or go by sea. Both the Nords and AD and Hammerfell have strong navy's. Theres no where that mentions that the Nords will supposedly get annihilated by the AD. The Nords saved the Empire and some of those Nords are Stormcloaks now. And the AD would have to deal with Bandits and Draugr and the million other things that the Nords are aware of that the AD is not.

Edited March 6, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

I mentioned fear as an example, but destruction magic will do just fine against an undermanned force. Back in the great war the empire had a bigger army, able to match the Dominion in the open, and had their own battlemages. So that's not comparable to a thermophilae situation, where the Thalmor would just focus their fireballs and whatnot at the enemy.

 

And I will indeed keep holding Ulfric and the stormcloaks responsible for starting the war, especially when most of the people in Skyrim didn't want it.

 

I know Game mechanics aren't the most definative resource, however, the book 'Killing before you are killed' states that a warrior trained in the use of a shield can block destruction spells. So, a trained and drilled Nordic Phalanx would, in fact, be able to withstand Aldmeri Magics.

 

Also, remember, Nordic artillary has a benefit that Aldmeri Fireballs don't. Rocks and pots of fire have an arc (allowing them to hit behind the enemies front line), the Aldmeri mages don't, meaning they must hit the first line (unless they have high ground. Invading Skyrim, they generally won't, and Cyrodiil is relatively flat).

 

And about half of Skyrim's population support Ulfric, and half don't. Its a balanced game, remember.

Edited March 6, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

I mentioned fear as an example, but destruction magic will do just fine against an undermanned force. Back in the great war the empire had a bigger army, able to match the Dominion in the open, and had their own battlemages. So that's not comparable to a thermophilae situation, where the Thalmor would just focus their fireballs and whatnot at the enemy.

 

And I will indeed keep holding Ulfric and the stormcloaks responsible for starting the war, especially when most of the people in Skyrim didn't want it.

I know Game mechanics aren't the most definative resource, however, the book 'Killing before you are killed' backs states that a warrior trained in the use of a shield can block destruction spells. So, a trained and drilled Nordic Phalanx would, in fact, be able to withstand Aldmeri Magics.

 

And about half of Skyrim's population support Ulfric, and half don't. Its a balanced game, remember.

A steel shield is a crappy defense against lightning. A shield would only work against fire really since the Thalmor don't seem to use frost magic (smart for them, bad for Nords).

 

At the start of the game 15 territories are Imperial and 10 are Stormcloak. Mathematically that's a 60% tilt in the Empire's favor, not half. While this could simply be the result of the Empire currently winning the Civil War. Hell, they HAD won until Alduin showed up. Also worth noting that Delphine pointed out how convenient the timing was favorable for the Thalmor's goals. She ended up being wrong, but the principle remains.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

 

I mentioned fear as an example, but destruction magic will do just fine against an undermanned force. Back in the great war the empire had a bigger army, able to match the Dominion in the open, and had their own battlemages. So that's not comparable to a thermophilae situation, where the Thalmor would just focus their fireballs and whatnot at the enemy.

 

And I will indeed keep holding Ulfric and the stormcloaks responsible for starting the war, especially when most of the people in Skyrim didn't want it.

I know Game mechanics aren't the most definative resource, however, the book 'Killing before you are killed' backs states that a warrior trained in the use of a shield can block destruction spells. So, a trained and drilled Nordic Phalanx would, in fact, be able to withstand Aldmeri Magics.

 

And about half of Skyrim's population support Ulfric, and half don't. Its a balanced game, remember.

A steel shield is a crappy defense against lightning. A shield would only work against fire really since the Thalmor don't seem to use frost magic (smart for them, bad for Nords).

 

At the start of the game 15 territories are Imperial and 10 are Stormcloak. Mathematically that's a 60% tilt in the Empire's favor, not half. While this could simply be the result of the Empire currently winning the Civil War. Hell, they HAD won until Alduin showed up. Also worth noting that Delphine pointed out how convenient the timing was favorable for the Thalmor's goals. She ended up being wrong, but the principle remains.

Interestingly, the Nords managed to defeat an advanced Aldmeri civilization that, judging by in game re[presentation, utilised shock magic more than anything else. They were the Falmer.

 

The Book 'Killing before your killed', has this to say on the topic of shields v magic:

 

Remember, against spells your blocking is useless until you're trained. So get up on mages quickly and let them eat steel. Deserves them right for using a witch weapon.

So we assert two things from this. 1 a trained warrior can in fact block magic with a shield. And 2, shck troops 9which, presumably the Nords would have plenty of) can be a significant threat to mages. Look at Caesar battle with Ariovistus. The Germanic's charged with such swiftness that he couldn't even throw things at them, yet alone charge a magical spell!

 

And I thought e were talking about the Nordic people. In every hold, there is some support for the Stromcloaks from the people. i think i listed it earlier. As for the ruling class, in fact, out of 9 holds, 4 support Ulfric, 3 support the empire, 2 are neutral (Morthal and Whiterun).

Edited March 6, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[fraquar]

Hope we aren't calling Winterhold a hold here. :D

[RighthandofSithis]

Hope we aren't calling Winterhold a hold here. :biggrin:

 

Therefore the support base is equal.