Imperial VS Stormcloak

[kradus]

Secondly, there are mixed feelings about the numbers of the Aldmeri. Elves live a long time, and one would assume that they in fact mature slowly (else by sheer numbers they could have flooded Tamriel, they may have had to in the face of overpopulation).

 

About this, it's been established that Elves are similiar to men in that regard. I read that Barenziah was sexually active at sixteen, and we know that Queen Ayrenn, the leader of the AD in Tes Online is 25 when she is crowned, before which time she was an adventurer in Tamriel. So there's no reason to think that Elves take longer to grow, or that the AD army wouldn't be rebuilt by the time of skyrim's civil war.

[LithiumPower]

According to The Real Barenziah, elves - dunmer at least have very infrequent and short fertile periods and therefore reproduce much slower. Barenziah lived for many centuries (I believe she is still alive as of 4E201, though she was born in 2E893) and has borne only two three children.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Lithium Flower

[sisterof]

The Khajiit are not trusted. While Ysolda the aspiring merchant in Whiterun attributes this to the general impression that they are all thieves, there is also the fact that Elsweyr is currently allied with the Dominion and most Khajiit have an almost religiously fervent admiration of the Altmer for their claimed part in restoring the moons.

 

Indeed. And I simply cannot accept that an intelligent race like the Khajiit is so gullible. They are clearly treated as even less than the humans and still align themselves with the Elves. Alright, the Moons are extremely important to their culture, but it doesn't mean they would worship anyone that simply claimed to have preserved them.

 

And Balgruuf chiefly cares about Balgruuf.

 

I must say I like Balgruuf. In my opinion, he does chiefly care about himself, but it doesn't mean he's not a great Jarl and loyal to Skyrim. His point about Skyrim not being "part of" the Empire, but "being" the Empire was quite good. I can see him becoming High King if the Empire has any interest in not only keeping Skyrim but keeping it strong - Elisif, bless her cuteness, is useless.

 

As for Galmar, as brusque as he is, he's not racist and he explains quite well how the nords feel. Skyrim is nord homeland, that's a fact - they've settled it, fought for it, defended it, built up a civilisation from scratch that has stood since merethic times and every time, man has been threatened, they've showed up in support- whether it was the Great War or the Alessian revolt. It's the first and apparently last bastion of man.

 

True, but Skyrim belonged to the Falmer first. It's not like men were born in it - they invaded it. They are the most recent civilization to inhabit it and protect it. I agree that all of Tamriel's human kingdoms could trace their origin to Skyrim, which makes it the homeland of Men. But it doesn't mean it's the homeland of Men alone - Elves were there before.

 

I always make it a point to beat up Rolff myself when I'm in Windhelm, I do it right outside Candlehearth too or when I'm prowling around the Gray Quarter at night and he's standing there heckling.

I really wish we could beat some sense into him by being a tolerant Nord or a non-Nord that simply kicks his ass. Alas!

BTW, thanks for the axe. I shall christen (talos-en?) it soon in the blood of our enemies. :biggrin:

 

 

Bethesda has the convenient habit of dusting their player-heroes under the rug after the events they participated in.

That's the huge point against the Dragonborn's legend to continue. He cannot be High King, because they could even be non-Nord (Argonian High King, anyone?), which would have to be mentioned in books in future games, there's no missing such a huge fact. He cannot be Emperor, for similar reasons - how would they avoid mentioning race/gender/marriage choices for the Emperor? I really hope there's some more greatness awaiting our dear protagonist, for he is a demi-god, there's no way he'll just defeat Alduin, Miraak and such and then fade away from notice. The songs about the Dragonborn always speak at length about power in battle and being great in all of Skyrim.

 

 

A question for you guys et gals: how do you think the Civil War outcome will be addressed at all in future games? I've ranted about it recently on my tumblr but only a forum can give significant feedback. I think they will say something along the lines of "a lot of chaos happened and then X stepped in and restored order". This X could be the Empire suddenly growing back its balls. It could be the Thalmor. Or it could be another revolutionary - remember that Tullius mentions, after killing Ulfric, that he's afraid he made a martyr, the Stormcloak Rebellion is led by Ulfric but he is far from the only one wishing it, half the population does. Those outcomes would "dust under the rug" the Civil War, which I believe is necessary for lore. How else would Bethesda deal with it, short of outright saying "Tullius won/Ulfric won" and shitting over the player's canon? So far, they never did that.

 

Another question: probably most people ignored my previous post, it was long, so I'll repeat that point here: the Empire has existed as a unifying power backed by the Divines. Now that it has no "sponsorship" by Akatosh or any god, being instead simply a political/economical organization, what is its reason for being? Morrowind is all but destroyed, Black Marsh is hardly an ally if it attacked another province, Elsewyr/Valenwood aligned with the Dominion, Hammerfell bailed out. There is no Divines-chosen lineage, there is no territorial strength. Is there even an Empire left?

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Secondly, there are mixed feelings about the numbers of the Aldmeri. Elves live a long time, and one would assume that they in fact mature slowly (else by sheer numbers they could have flooded Tamriel, they may have had to in the face of overpopulation).

 

About this, it's been established that Elves are similiar to men in that regard. I read that Barenziah was sexually active at sixteen, and we know that Queen Ayrenn, the leader of the AD in Tes Online is 25 when she is crowned, before which time she was an adventurer in Tamriel. So there's no reason to think that Elves take longer to grow, or that the AD army wouldn't be rebuilt by the time of skyrim's civil war.

 

Yes, that was why I said mixed feelings. But the PGE3rd edition states that a 50 year old altmer is considered young and immature, and the two reasons i suggested above (innumerable numbers and overpopulation) suggest that the Elves must have some biological means of keeping their population in check (as pointed out the post below yours).

 

Also, what does Queen Ayrenn's age have to do with anything?

 

 

Also, on the above post, Khajiit caravaneers (I think Madran) oppose the Thalmor (perhaps that is why they fled?)

 

And I can see, in the next game, Bethesda simply saying that the Civil War was concluded with Skyrim gaining significant autonomy, while still technically remaining part of the Empire (like Morrowind's Armistice, and the Warp in the West).

Edited March 7, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[RighthandofSithis]

 

As for Galmar, as brusque as he is, he's not racist and he explains quite well how the nords feel. Skyrim is nord homeland, that's a fact - they've settled it, fought for it, defended it, built up a civilisation from scratch that has stood since merethic times and every time, man has been threatened, they've showed up in support- whether it was the Great War or the Alessian revolt. It's the first and apparently last bastion of man.

 

True, but Skyrim belonged to the Falmer first. It's not like men were born in it - they invaded it. They are the most recent civilization to inhabit it and protect it. I agree that all of Tamriel's human kingdoms could trace their origin to Skyrim, which makes it the homeland of Men. But it doesn't mean it's the homeland of Men alone - Elves were there before.

 

Australia was inhabited mainly by the Aboriginals up until 200 years ago (when Australia was invaded and a genocide began against Aboriginal people). Yet Australians still celebrate their national holiday on 'invasion day' (or as we are meant to call it, 'Australia Day'). Similar story in the US, Africa etc etc.

 

ALWAYS WAS ALWAYS WILL BE ABORIGINAL LAND!

[LithiumPower]

@Sisterof, don't mention it, you're most welcome!

 

Let me attempt to address the issues you've raised.

 

The moons are intricately connected with the Khajiiti reproductive cycle. I will need to hunt down a source but I believe no cubs were born in the two years that the moons were missing. The Aldmeri Dominion emerged from their isolation and the moons mysteriously reappeared, the Altmer claiming responsibility for bringing them back. No one has been able to say otherwise. So to the best of their knowledge, the Altmer saved them from being doomed to extinction - think genophage virus, if you're familiar with Mass Effect. The province of elsweyr withdrew from the Empire and dissolved into the kingdoms of Annequina and Pelletine and both became client states of the Dominion and have been for nearly a hundred years.

 

I don't hate Balgruuf but I think he is overrated. The Thalmor have kidnapped people from his city and he's not pushed about it, his own children are caught up with Mephala. Adrianne Avenicci implies indirectly that he's got imperial coin inflowing and yet he keeps leading Ulfric on too. He only agrees to help the Dragonborn so long as the civil-war stalemate continues (which benefits him most of all) and his behaviour when he's finally relieved of his duty was just petty. He is quite quick to name you thane as soon as your connection with the dragons is revealed, likely to stake his claim on you should you prove useful down the line. Vignar is just as committed a Jarl and seems to be a more honourable man generally.

 

I honestly prefer Igmund or Brina, not because they're better governors but simply because they're more forthright.

 

As for Skyrim's original inhabitants, the history prior to the merethic era is very vague naturally but the nords or proto-nords were not the first men on Tamriel. The area was inhabited by the Nedic people, descendants of whom were later enslaved by the Ayleids and there were the humans that the Aldmer bred with when they first conquered High Rock (Direnni) and evolved into modern day Bretons.

 

There are some texts that suggest that the Nedic people are the forerunners of the proto-Nords, and according to Old Nordic beliefs, Man was born in Skyrim when Kyne breathed life into the land on top of the Throat of the World. The obscure text known as the Nu Mantia Intercepts claims that all life originated in Tamriel and thereafter spread to the other continents and sort of corroborates that myth.

 

In any case, the nords had been settling the northern coast of Skyrim for a long time while the Falmer settled the southern parts only to start clashing when their civilisations spread and made contact culminating in the sack of Saarthal, which then led to Ysgramor returning to Atmora and bringing his 500 companions.

 

Still, Gelebor is welcome to take it up if he ever feels like quitting his fancy vale but the Nords have inhabited the place for over 4000 years, which is a bloody long time to establish a right.

 

Finally, coming to your last point - is there an empire left?

 

That's the essence of the whole dilemma in a nutshell. The Septim Empire is definitely dead as a dodo as there hasn't been a Septim for 200 years. The current empire was formed when Titus Mede I, a colovian warlord conquered the Imperial City and crowned himself emperor in 4E17. The question is whether this dynasty can claim legacy of Tiber Septim and that's really up to us to decide for ourselves.

 

There is of course no way to know how Bethesda will handle the Civil War but I would wager it would be glossed over in some manner.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Lithium Flower

[kradus]

Also, what does Queen Ayrenn's age have to do with anything?

 

That elves are quite ready to fight at a 'young' age.

 

 

 

A question for you guys et gals: how do you think the Civil War outcome will be addressed at all in future games? I've ranted about it recently on my tumblr but only a forum can give significant feedback. I think they will say something along the lines of "a lot of chaos happened and then X stepped in and restored order". This X could be the Empire suddenly growing back its balls. It could be the Thalmor. Or it could be another revolutionary - remember that Tullius mentions, after killing Ulfric, that he's afraid he made a martyr, the Stormcloak Rebellion is led by Ulfric but he is far from the only one wishing it, half the population does. Those outcomes would "dust under the rug" the Civil War, which I believe is necessary for lore. How else would Bethesda deal with it, short of outright saying "Tullius won/Ulfric won" and s***ing over the player's canon? So far, they never did that.

 

I think the only way to bring the storylines together is to make the result of the civil war pointless. The Dominion beats the human nations down to the point where every province is broken and ragged, where neither the empire or the stormcloaks would be in action anymore. Because since either tullius or Ulfric get killed in the end of the civil war quest, any books comenting on what happened must not mention either of them as victorious.

 

The civil war isn't fully over either, because there are enemy strongholds in the land, and the empire would still technically be at war with Ulfric if he was victorious. So all that can to be mentioned in a neutral book is that there was a civil war, before the downfall of the empire. Neither faction can be counted as victorious.

 

And the next game would start with the nations of man in a miserable situation, with new leaders figting a losing guerrila war against the enemy who brought them low. Then the new hero would help unite them, and with some mystical help(via elder scrolls), perhaps help one of those leaders beat the powerfull armies of the Dominion, plus whatever monsters they pull out of their asses, and reach emperor status. That's one way, however the playfield must be leveled first.

 

Of course the Dragonborn would be an important character is such events, so he absolutely must first dissapear somehow. Perhaps one of the DLC's will aproach that, maybe he dies, or maybe he passes on to another plain of existance. But such a varied character cannot be summarized in any way and presented in any future title, sadly.

Edited March 7, 2013 by kradus

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Also, what does Queen Ayrenn's age have to do with anything?

 

That elves are quite ready to fight at a 'young' age.

 

Thats not the issue (although their training would be worse than that of more mature Elves). The Issue is whether they have been able to rebuild their population, and if they have had time to train this new army.

[kradus]

Considering that different sources have hinted for an upcomming war, I'd say yes. Underestimating the Dominion didn't work very well the first time.

[RighthandofSithis]

Considering that different sources have hinted for an upcomming war, I'd say yes. Underestimating the Dominion didn't work very well the first time.

 

But of course, overestimating them is just as bad. We know that their main tactic is deceit, and they are experts at making themselves appear stronger than they are.

 

Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel.

 

That said, you do have a point. Tamriel must prepare for another war, which, knowing its economic degeneracy, the Empire is unable to do.