Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LithiumPower]

sisterof,

 

You raise some interesting (and fresh, thank you!) questions.

 

Frankly, the metaphysics just confuses me! Let me try to explain what I know about the Lorkhan, Auri-el, the Thalmor and Talos and what all that has to do with the Dragonborn.

 

Lorkhan is a padomaic entity. He is also Shor of the old nordic pantheon and also known as Shezarr. His avatars on earth are Shezarines. He is basically the mastermind behind the creation of Mundus (the mortal plane of existence) and therefore the spirit of Man. At the beginning of linear time, at the point in the Dawn Era called Convention, he was killed for tricking/enticing/persuading some of the et'ada (original spirits of aurbis or creation) into giving up their immortality and status and giving birth to man and mundus. When it was discovered what the creation of Mundus would do to the Aedra (those et'ada that took part in the birth of Mundus), they reacted in various ways. Akatosh crashed his vessel into tamriel in High Rock and it became the Admantine Tower. Magnus and the Magna-Ge tried to escape into Aetherius and tore holes into the inner surface of the void, forming what appear as stars in the sky of various sizes, including the sun. The others became the ehlnofey or earth bones and their bodies are suspended above Nirn and perceived as the eight planets.

 

I'm not sure about this but I think by crashing Akatosh was transformed into Auri-el, the man-hating elven god of high magic. For this crime, Auri-el and Trinimac killed Lorkhan and fired his heart into the sea where it erupted and formed the Red Mountain. His body became the moons. And his soul was infused into man and became the spirit behind all human endeavour.

 

Auri-el then gave birth to the proto-elves, uplifted them and then he ascended to aetherius, showing them how to escape from mundus and reclaim their rightful place at his side.

 

Throughout time, the spirit of Lorkhan manifests in man in the form of shezarines and the various names they are given and become great heroes, champions and prophets of man - Ysmir, Wulfharth, Pelinal Whitestrake, etc.

 

There is also the idea that Tiber Septim =/= Talos, but rather that Tiber Septim is one of 3 individual souls that fused when the Numidium was activated and achieved Apotheosis to take Lorkhan's place in the pantheon as the divine Talos, the others being Wulfharth the Underking and the mage Zurin.

 

Dragonborn is a person with the soul of a dragon, blessed by Akatosh the father of Dragon-kind. Alessia is associated with dragonborn because of her covenant with Akatosh and the Amulet of Kings used to hold the souls of all dragonborn emperors until its destruction but she was not the first Dragonborn because they also appeared amongst the ancient nords, starting presumably with Miraak.

 

I suppose Tiber Septim being dragonborn, and Wulfharth being Shezzarine represents a conjoining of the two, making Talos doubly awesome.

 

Oh, oh and there is this other mind splotting thing - the enantiomorph, which is highly confusing but basically it means reenacting the act of creation in order to achieve apotheosis.

 

Mundus was formed when Akatosh/Auriel (the King) fought with Lorkhan (the rebel), aided by the Mage/Observer (Magnus).

 

The enantiomorph repeated with Tiber Septim (rebel) aided by Zurin (the mage/observer) and Wulfharth the Underking (King) when they formed into Talos.

 

It's speculated that the enantiomorph is repeating again with Ulfric (rebel) aided by the Dragonborn (mage/observer) and Tullius/Emperor (the King).

 

This of course will allow them to gloss over the identity of the Dragonborn and his eventual fate, as well as the matter of who wins the civl war and lay smackdown on the AD through divine intervention.

 

*mindblown*

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lithium Flower

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

 

Considering that different sources have hinted for an upcomming war, I'd say yes. Underestimating the Dominion didn't work very well the first time.

 

But of course, overestimating them is just as bad. We know that their main tactic is deceit, and they are experts at making themselves appear stronger than they are.

 

Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel.

 

That said, you do have a point. Tamriel must prepare for another war, which, knowing its economic degeneracy, the Empire is unable to do.

You contradict yourself. You admit that the AD is trying to destroy the Empire from within (case in point: Stormcloak rebellion) suggesting they really aren't willing to risk an all out war with a unified Empire directly then you write off the Empire as too weak to contend with them. The unified armies of the multiple races in the Empire crushed the AD at Red Ring and the AD doesn't want that again so they're playing divide and conquer. Supporting the Stormcloak rebellion is directly supporting the AD's plan.

 

I suppose my comment could be seen as contradictory. Allow me to explain.

 

The Dominion is indeed preparing for another war (suggested by igmund, their dossiers Ondolemar), however, given the suggestion that they are unable to reproduce quickly (as previously discussed), and thus an inability to 'quickly' rebuild their army, they have opted to attempt to force the Empire onto its knees in the meantime (as suggested by their tactics, history, dossiers, and Ondolemar). By bringing the Empire to its knees, it will be able to place a complete puppet onto the throne of Cyrodiil, allowing them to control Cyrodiil, high Rock and Skyrim without even going to war. Thus, we must be prepared for both.

 

Aiding the Stormcloaks will not fall into this plan. In fact, it will completely shatter it (forcing them into war, the domain of the Nords). Because, as previously discussed, Skyrim is able to sustain itself, and will not be dragged down with Cyrodiil,nor will it succumb to an Aldmeri puppet. As such, it will be at least able to provide some resistance, at the very least (instead of laying down at the Dominion's feet).

Skyrim cannot take on the Dominion alone in an offensive posture. Maybe they can defend themselves well enough but they cannot march out and threaten the AD so an independent Skyrim isn't a threat to them. Plus for all their talk about bashing the AD's face in even Ulfric and Galmar know better than that. The Stormcloaks aren't going to force a war with the AD.

[GeneralTullius]

True, economies can be fixed, under decent circumstances. However, the very dynamiuc of collapsing Empires is that it is almost impossible to do so. Gang violence in the capital, civil war in the north, piracy in the west, decimation and hostility from the east all make it impossible to recover from a war that devastated the entire economy and military of the Empire, and destroyed an entire province and a cycle of collapse that has been going on for 200 years.

 

I know what you will say 'but if the rebels stop'. The thing is, they won't. The very nature of a revolution is to screw the boss over. Make whatever argument to them you want, they won't listen. Saying you are weak and need to recover will make them even more zealous!

 

So why can't we just put down the rebellion by force? For a few reasons. 1. it makes you even more hated, and another rebellion may happen in the future (look at russia, for example). 2. it spends your already dwindling resources attempting to win. Look at rome, which was faced with various barbarian invasions. They put down these invasions, bit by bit, they collapsed even further. Look again at Russia, who was fighting a fierce war at the time of a rebellion. Look at Britain etc etc.

 

So what is the Solution? Clear the table and start again. It is better to face your foe while you are building up, not falling down. And it is much easier to build up when you already have some foundation to do so.

I remember reading thru Cicero's journals (a good read by the way) and he did say there was violence at least in Bravil and Cheydinhal. The Legate Fascendil also refers to violence in Hammerfell. There is also quite a bit of violence in Skyrim, there is violence in Valenwood over the Thalmor's secret purges. Violence is everywhere, everyone is having to put up with it and it happens. Although it seems like the violence in Cyrodil coincides with the Civil War in Skyrim. If the Civil War stops, there's no reason why the Legion can't get things in Cyrodil back under control as well. If we're to say the Empire can make it, which I think it can, then the Civil War must end and the Empire will go thru the process of restoring order. This seems to be on the mind of every Legate I have spoken to in game and restoring order is one of their main objectives. The rebels will not stop however, and that's to be expected because bandits never sleep, they are strongest when you are weak, that's their nature. I remember how the North ended the Civil War for the US, they virtually burned down the South, violence was ramped but in the end everything worked out for the better even with over half of the country in ruins. And we stayed United too. So, if Cyrodil is hurting from fallout from the Great War and Skyrim gets thru the Civil War with most of it's infrastructure in tact, like it does, then the Empire should be just fine. Clearing the table won't work because you still have the Stormcloaks in charge who are being fed by the Thalmor. And it won't really be clearing the table because the Thalmor want the Empire destoyed, which for the Thalmor would be more like handing them half table. The only way to clear the table would be to eliminate the Dominion first, then have each province disband and take care of themselves, which is unreasonable with the Dominion threat looming and gathering at the gates to hell according to Ondolomar.

Edited March 8, 2013 by GeneralTullius

[fraquar]

Right now this Empire isn't much of a threat to the AD. If the Empire has to keep all it's troops in Cyrodil (including any already existing Skryim Nord legions) just to keep the AD honest, then where are the reserves needed to actually threaten the AD? They surely aren't in Skyrim.

 

The AD has what they want right now, a politically weak and inept Empire in their pocket, and that Empire using it's own resources to weaken the only real political resistance to changing it - Skyrim.

[Kayyyleb]

Right now this Empire isn't much of a threat to the AD. If the Empire has to keep all it's troops in Cyrodil (including any already existing Skryim Nord legions) just to keep the AD honest, then where are the reserves needed to actually threaten the AD? They surely aren't in Skyrim.

 

The AD has what they want right now, a politically weak and inept Empire in their pocket, and that Empire using it's own resources to weaken the only real political resistance to changing it - Skyrim.

Well you pretty much got everything backwards.

[abborre]

I kinda was gonna read throught what had been said here in this discussion so far but realizing there is 88 pages of it I cant even bring myself to start really :/

I dunno if that makes me lazy and if I am thus considered unworth of adding my own opinion to the discussion largly beacuse someone else have probably already written what I have to say, but anyway.

 

Since this game is about role playing I think Bethesda's aim with the Stormcloak vs Imperial conflict was to give people a chanse to feel that they are devoted to a cause, theyre not only being the generic good guy and saving the world, theyre getting the chance to be inspired by and fight for a ideal.

 

The Stormcloaks are brought in for this reason. Theyre a manifestation of the inspiring pride and strenght of Skyrims sons and daughters and that peoples fury, bitterness and dissapointment against the empire for allowing the Thalmors to roam around arresting people. They thus propose to break free from the Empire and stand their ground against the Thalmors.

 

This is however where the romantic idealism of the Stromcloaks fail to me, theyre just way to unreasonable. Im not a complete expert on what exactly happened during the great war and what the balance between the Empire and the Thalmors currently looks like, but for all Ive gatehred this is my conclusion. The Empire got wipped bad during the great war eventho the Thalmors suffered losses as well. But the Empire is still probably the most powerfull force in Tamriel eventho theyre strethced thin and the horribel news form the war have made people doubt them.

The Stromcloaks seem to think that SKyrim, a land wich was first drain of recruits for the Great war, can muster enought forces to defy the entire empire, and then, despite the obvously catastrophal losses still have enought recosures, battle worhty men and women and fighting spirit left to like, litteraly take on the Thalmors themselves? Thats just not resonable.

The great war is not over, it has only paused. And when the war continues the greatest hope of standing against the elven Nazis is unity.

And how people get so worked up over not getting to worship Talos is quite ridiculous. The great war will have its round two pretty soon, then youre perfectly free to worship Talos as you wish again.

And those who reasone that the Emperials where cowards for giving in to the elves demands to outlaw worship of Talos, the empires own founder, are also unreasonable. The Empires best chace of winning was getting a chance to recover, even if it came at the price of not being able to worship Talos. Beacuse surely, if Talos was a great guy he is probably more concerned with the survival of his empire than the fact that people cant officialy worship him for a few years? Or is his ego THAT big?

The best thing to do is to endure and prepeare for the fight to come, when you get a chanse to direct all your anger against the real villains here, the elves.

Beacuse, after all, why do you think the elves where so anxious to outlaw Talos worship, they hope to win the war, so why not just not wait untill theyve won it and outlaw Talos then? Was it really just for religious reasones? It was for demoralizing. Proving to the imperial citizens that their leaders where submissive and wouldnt even stand up for their founder. The Stormcloak uprising is if you think about it one of the best things that could have happened the Thalmors. They have made the wounded emprie turn on itself, wounding itself even worse and causing confusion and drying the people of what it has left of their fighting spirit.

 

Ulfric calls the Empire the Thalmors puppets, but he is truly the puppet himself. He tears the empire apart FOR the Thalmors, when they are in a far away land he directs his anger against the much closer people who really are trying to preserve Tamriel. In the Thalmor dossier it is even stated that they consider Ulfric a "uncooperative asset" to them, even if they hope he doesnt actually win the war, they just want him to drag it out as long as possible.

 

As I progressed trought the game this became more and more clear to me, the Stromcloaks are the romanitc idealists who you imideatly sympathise with after nearly getting your head cut off by the imperials at Helgen, but in general the emprie are the ones seeking to hold Tamrial together to actually oppose the Thalmor.

 

Besides most of the Stormcloaks are conservative, nationalistic racist drunkards. No chance Im joining them :P

[RighthandofSithis]

Skyrim cannot take on the Dominion alone in an offensive posture. Maybe they can defend themselves well enough but they cannot march out and threaten the AD so an independent Skyrim isn't a threat to them. Plus for all their talk about bashing the AD's face in even Ulfric and Galmar know better than that. The Stormcloaks aren't going to force a war with the AD.

 

2 points.

 

A, The proposed alliance with hammerfell. Need I restate the reasoning behind such a move?

 

B. Some Resistance is better than no resistance.

Edited March 8, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[RighthandofSithis]

Besides most of the Stormcloaks are conservative, nationalistic racist drunkards. No chance Im joining them :P

 

Yeah, as a socialist, I understand.

 

In RL, I'd hate all sides. But there wouldn;t really be much choice for me. Unless Tamriel undergoes some massive industrial revolution, I'm personally out.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

True, economies can be fixed, under decent circumstances. However, the very dynamiuc of collapsing Empires is that it is almost impossible to do so. Gang violence in the capital, civil war in the north, piracy in the west, decimation and hostility from the east all make it impossible to recover from a war that devastated the entire economy and military of the Empire, and destroyed an entire province and a cycle of collapse that has been going on for 200 years.

 

I know what you will say 'but if the rebels stop'. The thing is, they won't. The very nature of a revolution is to screw the boss over. Make whatever argument to them you want, they won't listen. Saying you are weak and need to recover will make them even more zealous!

 

So why can't we just put down the rebellion by force? For a few reasons. 1. it makes you even more hated, and another rebellion may happen in the future (look at russia, for example). 2. it spends your already dwindling resources attempting to win. Look at rome, which was faced with various barbarian invasions. They put down these invasions, bit by bit, they collapsed even further. Look again at Russia, who was fighting a fierce war at the time of a rebellion. Look at Britain etc etc.

 

So what is the Solution? Clear the table and start again. It is better to face your foe while you are building up, not falling down. And it is much easier to build up when you already have some foundation to do so.

I remember reading thru Cicero's journals (a good read by the way) and he did say there was violence at least in Bravil and Cheydinhal. The Legate Fascendil also refers to violence in Hammerfell. There is also quite a bit of violence in Skyrim, there is violence in Valenwood over the Thalmor's secret purges. Violence is everywhere, everyone is having to put up with it and it happens. Although it seems like the violence in Cyrodil coincides with the Civil War in Skyrim. If the Civil War stops, there's no reason why the Legion can't get things in Cyrodil back under control as well. If we're to say the Empire can make it, which I think it can, then the Civil War must end and the Empire will go thru the process of restoring order. This seems to be on the mind of every Legate I have spoken to in game and restoring order is one of their main objectives. The rebels will not stop however, and that's to be expected because bandits never sleep, they are strongest when you are weak, that's their nature. I remember how the North ended the Civil War for the US, they virtually burned down the South, violence was ramped but in the end everything worked out for the better even with over half of the country in ruins. And we stayed United too. So, if Cyrodil is hurting from fallout from the Great War and Skyrim gets thru the Civil War with most of it's infrastructure in tact, like it does, then the Empire should be just fine. Clearing the table won't work because you still have the Stormcloaks in charge who are being fed by the Thalmor. And it won't really be clearing the table because the Thalmor want the Empire destoyed, which for the Thalmor would be more like handing them half table. The only way to clear the table would be to eliminate the Dominion first, then have each province disband and take care of themselves, which is unreasonable with the Dominion threat looming and gathering at the gates to hell according to Ondolomar.

Actually, the violence in Hammerfell and the Dominion has most likely stopped, for a number of reasons.

 

The Dominion is believed to have subdued its internal rebellious factions well before the Great War, and smashed the Blades just before it.

 

In Hammerfell, the Crowns were left in a prime position to reassert their traditional dominance over the Forbears.

 

And In Cyrodiil, Cicero, in character, states ALL of the Imperial province is ravaged by Strife. Meaning that the Entire province is still experiencing it.

 

Also, the comparisions between the Stormcloak Rebellion, and the US Civil War does not take into account the burdens that the EMpire hass accumulated over 200 years, we can see that Titus Mede I was able to patch the Empire together temporarily, but it wasn't long before it began to fall apart again. Now the Empire is at a point where it simply cannot continue. To quote Ondolemar, its only a matter of time before the Empire collapses of its own rotten decay.

 

And the Stormcloaks aren;t being supported by the Thalmor. Their Dossier on Ulfric states that if they must support the Stormcloaks (to keep the war from tipping in the favor of one side), they must do so very carefully so as not to tip the balence in their favor.

 

An dthey want the Empire to sumbit, or die, taking Skryrim and High Rock with it. By producing a new state in Skyrim, that cuts the Empire from High Rock, the Empire will die, yes, But Skyrim and High Rock shall survive. this is better than the total collapse I pointed out above.

Edited March 8, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[fraquar]

The Thalmor really don't need Ulfric to further their cause. Why?

 

A) The Empire willingly surrendered after Red Ring - gladly accepting the very terms that started the war in the 1st place.

B) They willingly allow the Thalmor to go wherever they want, do whatever they want in Imperial controlled lands - with impunity.

 

They really don't need anything more than that. Anything else is gravy.

 

The only thing that gives them pause right now is the Dragonborn - the Empire they have in their back pocket already - with or without Ulfric and the Civil War.

 

Added: When they turned their back on Hammerfell, they pretty much ceased to be an Empire in my book.

Edited March 8, 2013 by fraquar