kradus Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) The Thalmor really don't need Ulfric to further their cause. Why? A) The Empire willingly surrendered after Red Ring - gladly accepting the very terms that started the war in the 1st place.B) They willingly allow the Thalmor to go wherever they want, do whatever they want in Imperial controlled lands - with impunity. They really don't need anything more than that. Anything else is gravy. The only thing that gives them pause right now is the Dragonborn - the Empire they have in their back pocket already - with or without Ulfric and the Civil War. Added: When they turned their back on Hammerfell, they pretty much ceased to be an Empire in my book. No. Considering what the emperor did before the signing the WGC, we know he wasn't one bit happy about it, or the Hammerfell situation. Quit the propaganda statements.The only lore we have on the great war states that the empire was spent and unable to continue fighting at that point. If you chose to ignore or deny these facts, there's no point discussing it. Edited March 8, 2013 by kradus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 The Empire was spent after the war. The Imperials specifically. But the Nord legions suffered very little casualties during the campaign. Although some, well many, Nords did in fact die for the Empire's sake. The Empire's current state - -Political strife-Power struggles ( The Council was unable to successfully put an Emperor on the throne then Mede took it by force)-Military is devastated-Civil War in Skyrim-Economy is very unstable-Attempting to match the forces on the border with the dominion-Allowing its people to be murdered-Civil unrest within its own capitol These are things that destroy governments. I know many of you directly oppose Ulfric, but you have to turn around and look at the Empire's situation. Its, as many NPC's state, decaying and rotting from within. Skyrim is suffering from the Empires situation. So forcing Skyrim back into the Empire is not going to suddenly solve all of its problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 The Empire was spent after the war. The Imperials specifically. But the Nord legions suffered very little casualties during the campaign. Although some, well many, Nords did in fact die for the Empire's sake. The Empire's current state - -Political strife-Power struggles ( The Council was unable to successfully put an Emperor on the throne then Mede took it by force)-Military is devastated-Civil War in Skyrim-Economy is very unstable-Attempting to match the forces on the border with the dominion-Allowing its people to be murdered-Civil unrest within its own capitol These are things that destroy governments. I know many of you directly oppose Ulfric, but you have to turn around and look at the Empire's situation. Its, as many NPC's state, decaying and rotting from within. Skyrim is suffering from the Empires situation. So forcing Skyrim back into the Empire is not going to suddenly solve all of its problems. Nothing you listed can't be applied to independent Skyrim just as easily. Skyrim has power struggles, a devastated military, dependence on foreign trade, severely one-sided deficit of troops compared to both the Empire and AD, civil unrest, corruption and unjust imprisonment. Nothing gets better without the Empire any more than with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithiumPower Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 It doesn't matter whether Titus Mede signed the WGC with tears of misery or joy, the fact that he signed it at all is what is relevant. And 'the empire was spent and unable to continue fighting at that point' is imperial justification, clearly Hammerfell and Skyrim demonstrated by their respective rebellions that they had a lot more fight left in them. The Concise History is a great text and we all quote it frequently on facts but it mustn't be forgotten that it is essentially one man's analysis complete with all his biases and not gospel. The fact is that Cyrodiil has two vast borders that are hostile.The fact is that Cyrodiil has the least natural defences of all the provinces.The fact is that Cyrodiil has already been invaded and ravaged once.The fact is that Cyrodiil is the least adversely affected by the WGC. The facts indicate that Cyrodiil has dragged its feet for 30 years because it has the most to lose in a second war. It is a weak centre that has utterly failed to safeguard the interests of the provinces not once, not twice but at nearly every opportunity. Tullius' assertion that the Empire is planning to get back at the Dominion, just you wait! - is supported by neither logic nor evidence. I mean, why would Titus Mede even want to start a second war with the AD, what's in it for him? He has a treaty in place, he has Cyrodiil territory secured, he can even wear his Talos amulet and mutter a prayer every now and then to stave off any guilt without risking a Justiciar picking him up in the middle of tending his farm, if only these meddling provinces could be brought to heel, he could park his legions south just in case and live out his days in peace. If the Dominion wants to run roughshod over the Alik'r, bully for them! It was just desert anyway! If the Aldmeri want to round up some overzealous nords and lock them up in Northwatch - what does he care? Goddamn nords with their goddamn traditions, just hang some rebel scum head on a pike, crush the stinkin' lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kradus Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 He cares because he did refuse Thalmor demands at first, despite the advice of his generals. If he was the man you people want him so bad to be, he would have signed the WGC without a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 He cares because he did refuse Thalmor demands at first, despite the advice of his generals. If he was the man you people want him so bad to be, he would have signed the WGC without a fight.This. He DID fight the Thalmor. The Empire didn't roll over for the Thalmor at all, quite the opposite. You don't fight a full scale war with the intent to lose. Unfortunately it ended in a bloody stalemate which wasn't the plan. What's an emperor to do but accept a rather slanted treaty and rebuild for round 2? Or we can go with the genius Stormcloak plan which is leave the Imperials for the dogs and take on the AD without Legion assistance with a civil war weakened Skyrim and a half-strength Hammerfell? Ufric needs to go to a war college or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 The Empire was spent after the war. The Imperials specifically. But the Nord legions suffered very little casualties during the campaign. Although some, well many, Nords did in fact die for the Empire's sake. The Empire's current state - -Political strife-Power struggles ( The Council was unable to successfully put an Emperor on the throne then Mede took it by force)-Military is devastated-Civil War in Skyrim-Economy is very unstable-Attempting to match the forces on the border with the dominion-Allowing its people to be murdered-Civil unrest within its own capitol These are things that destroy governments. I know many of you directly oppose Ulfric, but you have to turn around and look at the Empire's situation. Its, as many NPC's state, decaying and rotting from within. Skyrim is suffering from the Empires situation. So forcing Skyrim back into the Empire is not going to suddenly solve all of its problems. Nothing you listed can't be applied to independent Skyrim just as easily. Skyrim has power struggles, a devastated military, dependence on foreign trade, severely one-sided deficit of troops compared to both the Empire and AD, civil unrest, corruption and unjust imprisonment. Nothing gets better without the Empire any more than with it. As we discussed pages ago, Skyrim is capable of sustaining itself and has a high population of warlike people, and has tactics to combat the magics of the Dominion. Furthermore, by saying that A Stormcloak Skyrim will be subject to internal struggle, you are effectively admitting that Ulfric is not power hungry. If ulfric is so power hungry, he would assert his power, and he most certainly wouldn't permit the Jarls to bicker amongst themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 He cares because he did refuse Thalmor demands at first, despite the advice of his generals. If he was the man you people want him so bad to be, he would have signed the WGC without a fight.This. He DID fight the Thalmor. The Empire didn't roll over for the Thalmor at all, quite the opposite. You don't fight a full scale war with the intent to lose. Unfortunately it ended in a bloody stalemate which wasn't the plan. What's an emperor to do but accept a rather slanted treaty and rebuild for round 2? Or we can go with the genius Stormcloak plan which is leave the Imperials for the dogs and take on the AD without Legion assistance with a civil war weakened Skyrim and a half-strength Hammerfell? Ufric needs to go to a war college or something. Mede did fight the thalmor, and lost. he is now considerably weaker than before, and the dominion has the ability to crush the EMpire and make it entirely dependant on Alinor. And I think you misunderstand, unlike Cyrodiil, there is no evidence to suggest that Hammerfell is experiencing internal conflicts, in fact, the evidence points to the contrary. the Cornws of Northern hammerfell were in a prime position to subdue the Forbears while they retook Hammerfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kradus Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 As we discussed pages ago, Skyrim is capable of sustaining itself and has a high population of warlike people, and has tactics to combat the magics of the Dominion. When you refer to an independent Skyrim, you shouldn't count on imperial veterans and imperial sympathisers in general. Ulfric and his men can't relly on the people they fought and killed. And any tactics the nords may have didn't keep Ayelids, bretons and Akaviri from marching on their territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) As we discussed pages ago, Skyrim is capable of sustaining itself and has a high population of warlike people, and has tactics to combat the magics of the Dominion. When you refer to an independent Skyrim, you shouldn't count on imperial veterans and imperial sympathisers in general. Ulfric and his men can't relly on the people they fought and killed. And any tactics the nords may have didn't keep Ayelids, bretons and Akaviri from marching on their territory. However, most of Skyrim's agriculture is already in Stormlcoak territory, the rest is neutral. Nonetheless, you must understand that amungst the Imperial holds, there are a number of Stormlcoaks. Falkreath is riddled with them, apparently, it is not uncommon for people to join the stormcloaks from Morthal (and across all of Skyrim), and in Markarth, half the city is owned by Stormcloaks. Similarly, you are saying that following an imperial Victory, Skyrim would not be able to recover. And of course we can't rely on imperial loyalists, but that is why they either keep fighting in their small camps, admit defeat and go back to work, or retreat to Cyrodiil. And, in fact, the Nords did scare off one Akaviri army (after Reman's time), they did screw the Alyieds and Falmer over, and when did the bretons invade? Hell, its acknowledged a Nordic Army defeated an Aldmeri one even when the nords were surrounded! EDIT: Also, how many pages until we have to open another thread? Edited March 9, 2013 by RighthandofSithis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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