HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) @ General Tullius. So its nice to see you again Stormhammer. I would have to say that you have not matured at all since you were banned for 14 days. Please do your best to act like your age. In order to keep this forum on topic - The AD is playing Ulfric, yes thats true, but it doesnt just disregard the Stormcloaks reasons for rebelling. Like we have stated several times. A revolution is caused by a revolutionary situation. The Stormcloaks dont shout "For Ulfric" they shout "For Skyrim" Given the Stormcloaks refer to it as "Ulfrics banner" but in truth it is. The Banner of Eastmarch. But they fight under him. He is the faction leader but they dont necessarily fight for Ulfric. The Stormcloaks fight for Skyrim. "Skyrim is Nord land, and we ought to rule it." "You think some emperor down south knows whats best for Skyrim? Im no mans fool, I know Ulfric Stormcloak is power hungry and selfish, but he's the devil I know. Is that plain enough for you?" What Talos wants is irrelevant. Its about doing whats right and whats right is freedom. Whether it be religious freedom or freedom to choose if your right shoe goes on your left foot or not. Its about freedom and the right to choose. Edited March 9, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) I feel I've missed a legitimate point made by GeneralTullius. Cicero did only mention specific cities in his journal, however, in person, he says the entire province is ravaged by strife. EDIT: Hey, I found a quote by Lenin on revolutionary situations. My fears that the 'revolutionary situation' theory can't apply to Skyrim for material reasons seems to be dismissed by this statement: To the Marxist it is indisputable that a revolution is impossible without a revolutionary situation; furthermore, it is not every revolutionary situation that leads to revolution. What, generally speaking, are the symptoms of a revolutionary situation? We shall certainly not be mistaken if we indicate the following three major symptoms: (1) when it is impossible for the ruling classes to maintain their rule without any change; when there is a crisis, in one form or another, among the “upper classes”, a crisis in the policy of the ruling class, leading to a fissure through which the discontent and indignation of the oppressed classes burst forth. For a revolution to take place, it is usually insufficient for “the lower classes not to want” to live in the old way; it is also necessary that “the upper classes should be unable” to live in the old way; (2) when the suffering and want of the oppressed classes have grown more acute than usual; (3) when, as a consequence of the above causes, there is a considerable increase in the activity of the masses, who uncomplainingly allow themselves to be robbed in “peace time”, but, in turbulent times, are drawn both by all the circumstances of the crisis and by the “upper classes” themselves into independent historical action.-Lenin, The collapse of the second internationalhttp://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/csi/ii.htm"]http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/csi/ii.htm All three of the points above are evident in Skyrim, and it furthers the point that the Empire is unable to combat the Thalmor. Like a Bolsh :cool: Edited March 9, 2013 by RighthandofSithis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) I stand up for what is right, and I stand up for Tamriel, not just Nords. And I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty or to take a litte criticism for what Titus Mede II had to do. I'm not a religious man at all and I say do away with organized religion altogether. Let people worship whatever is in their hearts. All the WGC really is, is separation between church and state. That's it. I strongly support the Concordant I think it should be expanded, good job TMII.Heh, I'm almost tempted to say I like you. I'm noticing an interesting trend where the less religious/more rational people side with the Empire while the more idealistic and emotional side with the Stormcloaks. While I completely agree with you on separation of church and state I can't see the WGC as being a step in the right direction. It's merely trading one state-controlled religion for a slightly altered version of the same (not to mention witch-hunting for noncompliants) instead of actual secular religious freedom. Eight Divines or Nine. Doesn't matter to me, but having a state-endorsed religion is asking for trouble and the WGC shows how. Edited March 9, 2013 by Kayyyleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I stand up for what is right, and I stand up for Tamriel, not just Nords. And I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty or to take a litte criticism for what Titus Mede II had to do. I'm not a religious man at all and I say do away with organized religion altogether. Let people worship whatever is in their hearts. All the WGC really is, is separation between church and state. That's it. I strongly support the Concordant I think it should be expanded, good job TMII.Heh, I'm almost tempted to say I like you. I'm noticing an interesting trend where the less religious/more rational people side with the Empire while the more idealistic and emotional side with the Stormcloaks. While I completely agree with you on separation of church and state I can't see the WGC as being a step in the right direction. It's merely trading one state-controlled religion for a slightly altered version of the same (not to mention witch-hunting for noncompliants) instead of actual secular religious freedom. Are you just generalising, or are you accusing me of not being rational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Calling us irrational is an opinion. Im a very rational person. You dont know me and I dont know you. That would be like me saying I have a hunch that your a homosexual (I dont, but its an example. Please dont take that to heart.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) I stand up for what is right, and I stand up for Tamriel, not just Nords. And I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty or to take a litte criticism for what Titus Mede II had to do. I'm not a religious man at all and I say do away with organized religion altogether. Let people worship whatever is in their hearts. All the WGC really is, is separation between church and state. That's it. I strongly support the Concordant I think it should be expanded, good job TMII.Heh, I'm almost tempted to say I like you. I'm noticing an interesting trend where the less religious/more rational people side with the Empire while the more idealistic and emotional side with the Stormcloaks. While I completely agree with you on separation of church and state I can't see the WGC as being a step in the right direction. It's merely trading one state-controlled religion for a slightly altered version of the same (not to mention witch-hunting for noncompliants) instead of actual secular religious freedom. Are you just generalising, or are you accusing me of not being rational?Generalizing. I've taken part in several of these debates on a couple of sites over the last few months. Though HighKingUlfric or whatever he's calling himself now does pretty much fit what I would classify as the stereotype. You a bit less so. Edit: and I'm not saying all Stormcloaks are necessarily irrational. Only that in my experience the Empire side of the debate tends to use more rational reasons (military tactics, etc) compared to emotional reasons (WGC anger, etc). Edited March 9, 2013 by Kayyyleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) Calling us irrational is an opinion. Im a very rational person. You dont know me and I dont know you. That would be like me saying I have a hunch that your a homosexual (I dont, but its an example. Please dont take that to heart.) With respect, he is just generalising. If so, I can actually see the point there. There are a number of stormcloaks other than us, and it seems that a good number aren't overly rational. Look to the beginnings of this thread. I think i was the first Stormcloak to make a rational argument (but then, I wasn't really a Stormcloak, more a neutral observer trying to find some Stormcloak arguements). Similarly, I would like to say that i have a hunch that a majority of Imperial supporters are, in RL, right winged. I take Stormhammer and GeneralTullius for example (they may be the same person, but regardless, best not to jump to conclusions), they sound to me like very nationalist, and very conservative people. That said, I'm generalising (and as such, that is not a definitive rule). Edited March 9, 2013 by RighthandofSithis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 True, but I would just think it would be safest for everyone if we took a step away from the personal attacks. That way maybe the forum wont be closed. Im not innocent in the case either but I just think its a sketchy road to travel down, things could get bad quick that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 @Kayyyleb An altered religion is a different religion technically. It may be similar but its still different. Its still paganism but its not Nordic Paganism. Shor is the chieftain of their pantheon so if they dismiss him then it drastically alters their whole religious doctrine. Talos mantled Shor, so they are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) Similarly, I would like to say that i have a hunch that a majority of Imperial supporters are, in RL, right winged. I take Stormhammer and GeneralTullius for example (they may be the same person, but regardless, best not to jump to conclusions), they sound to me like very nationalist, and very conservative people. That said, I'm generalising (and as such, that is not a definitive rule). It's actually interesting you'd point that out since politically I identify much more closely with the left in the majority of cases. I'm not a big fan of a lot of what the Empire represents as it would apply in the real world but I see it as a necessity at the very least for the time being. I liken the situation to say...the American South trying to restart the American Civil War right in the middle of the Cold War with Russia. Sorry folks, now's just not the time for that. @Kayyyleb An altered religion is a different religion technically. It may be similar but its still different. Its still paganism but its not Nordic Paganism. Shor is the chieftain of their pantheon so if they dismiss him then it drastically alters their whole religious doctrine. Talos mantled Shor, so they are the same. I'd have to disagree. Under normal circumstances an altered religion is considered either a cult or denomination of an umbrella religion. In other cases like with Christianity you have literally thousands of different slightly unique variants but all are so similar that they all are considered Christianity unless you're really being specific. Removing Talos from the pantheon (for imo decent reasons actually) doesn't change the entire religion, it's like saying Mormonism isn't Christianity anymore because it's too different. It affects Mormonism but not so much Christianity. Edited March 9, 2013 by Kayyyleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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