Imperial VS Stormcloak

[sisterof]

There's two things I'd like to point out about the rebellion. When Ulfric returned from the Great War he immediately got involved in the Markarth Incident and imprisoned. Yet, upon his release, the people of Windhelm hailed him a hero and basically begged him to lead them. I don't think he had any time to become that much of a known, inspiring hero - he spent his childhood in isolation, then left for a few years of war, came back and was locked away. That means it was the population that demanded revolution. It wasn't something Ulfric started, and he grew to become the charismatic leader we see in the game. He wasn't so when he took the mantle of leadership. So the people created the Stormcloak Rebellion, and then they shaped their leader.

 

I agree that without Ulfric they lose their best candidate for High King, since Ulfric defeated Torygg in traditional duel. But that does not mean there's no other rebel suited for the role. And I agree that Balgruuf is an excellent candidate for High King. He and Ulfric have some big rivalry behind the scenes, but they do respect each other - "man who understand each other often have no need of words", "Balgruuf is true Nord and will come around", "Ulfric is not kidding" and so on.

The other thing I'd like to point out is about Ulfric's surrender at Helgen. For all they knew, they were going to be taken to the Imperial City. That offered far better chance of escape than simply refusing surrender and dying on the spot. That said, I still think it's all very strange for Ulfric to simply not resist when the plans change for immediate execution.

 

Question: Does anyone have any idea why Bethesda would want the player to see him from the beginning? The player could have been taken along with Ralof et company, but why Ulfric himself had to be there? If they wanted the player to start on the underdog side, being captured and unjustly (read: with no court whatsoever) sentenced was enough - no need to have the big boss of the rebellion there. When I first played the game, it made me believe he was the Dragonborn and Alduin was there for him - then as plot developed I hoped he'd be a rival. In the end it was nothing of those things. Maybe Bethesda was going for something like that and gave up? I was taking a look at sound files yesterday and there's a lot of voice recordings for the axe being sent to Ulfric, and Ulfric stepping down from Windhelm's throne (same dialogue we get with Balgruuf), so they either recorded it before they knew who was going to play who, or they scrapped a completely different story before coming up with the one we got.

Another question: Is there any source pointing out that Ulfric was a high ranking official? I don't remember it from dialogue... What I do know is that he was taken as a boy to High Hrothgar, spent 10 years there. So he was very young when he left to join the Legion - maybe under 18. Then we have only 4 years of war.... Can we get someone so young rising in ranks that fast? I get the impression he was simply a foot soldier. Maybe he's called a veteran simply because that's how we call anyone who's been in a war.

Related to the previous question - the Thalmor Dossier doesn't say anything about shaping him up to become a dormant asset, as our recently-banned fellow so passionately claimed. They say he was tortured, probably physically and psychologically by believing his "breaking" had costed the Imperial City. Maybe his knowledge of such important information is what people are taking as proof of high rank? Still, I think it may be that the Thalmor tortured him the same way they did everyone else, not having such a great scheme as a civil war in store. They did allow him to escape and intended him to wreck some havoc, but it seems that only afterwards they learned he'd be an useful asset after finding him out again ("contact was established"). From the dossier:

"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

The point "proven his worth as an asset" could also mean he was seen as a possible asset by having useful information about the Imperial City, that he ultimately gave in too late, hence only proving his worth to the Thalmor afterwards. Opinions?

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

However, killing Ulfric makes a martyr. The horme did not put down their swords when Potema was killed, they just got more violent. Galmar would make at the very least, for a temporary leader, although he is inspiring in his own right (listen to him on the field, he can be quite moving). Hell, Ulfric could have named him as his successor, we never know.

It's a given that someone else will take up the banner. But my point is that they won't be an equal to Ulfric. Martyrs are all fine and good, but when the man instigating the entire rebellion dies, it simply doesn't bode well for them. As far as I'm aware, Ulfric has no heirs, so Galmar is literally the only person of any repute who could take his place but he doesn't have the same legitimacy as Ulfric does since he can't claim the throne nor is he even a jarl. It would make him little more than a nationalistic warlord fighting a dead man's cause to take the throne from a perfectly legitimate High Queen.

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

[kradus]

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

Edited March 10, 2013 by kradus

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

 

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

 

 

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

Dawnstar's people don't really give a crap about the war. Skald is the only one and he's very unpopular for it so don't expect Dawnstar to keep fighting. Riften is also generally uninterested in the war. Laila supports Ulfric but is more concerned about Riften's affairs than the Stormcloak cause and the people are too busy complaining about the corruption in their own city to care about the war. Meanwhile, Winterhold's population of 5 is completely useless in fighting a rebellion. The hardcore Stormcloaks are pretty much all based in Windhelm, and one hold isn't going to hold out against the Legion. Edited March 10, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[kradus]

 

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

 

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

 

What he said, and I was talking about after an imperial victory, when the surviving stormcloaks lose pretty much all support.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

Dawnstar's people don't really give a crap about the war. Skald is the only one and he's very unpopular for it so don't expect Dawnstar to keep fighting. Riften is also generally uninterested in the war. Laila supports Ulfric but is more concerned about Riften's affairs than the Stormcloak cause and the people are too busy complaining about the corruption in their own city to care about the war. Meanwhile, Winterhold's population of 5 is completely useless in fighting a rebellion. The hardcore Stormcloaks are pretty much all based in Windhelm, and one hold isn't going to hold out against the Legion.

 

I was talking politically. The people in the TES universe have no say in politics. And in Riften, we know that there are various nobles (Including the Jarls family) who are strongly against the Empire, so I would say they have an interest in fighting the Legion.

 

And by that argument, if Ulfric were to assassinate Tullius, then the Imperials would have no support. A number of Falkreath's population are stormcloak supporters, Morthal and Whiterun are neutral, Markarth has its own problems.

 

And kradus, that makes sense. I said that the only way to win is to eliminate the support base of the enemy.

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

Dawnstar's people don't really give a crap about the war. Skald is the only one and he's very unpopular for it so don't expect Dawnstar to keep fighting. Riften is also generally uninterested in the war. Laila supports Ulfric but is more concerned about Riften's affairs than the Stormcloak cause and the people are too busy complaining about the corruption in their own city to care about the war. Meanwhile, Winterhold's population of 5 is completely useless in fighting a rebellion. The hardcore Stormcloaks are pretty much all based in Windhelm, and one hold isn't going to hold out against the Legion.

I was talking politically. The people in the TES universe have no say in politics. And in Riften, we know that there are various nobles (Including the Jarls family) who are strongly against the Empire, so I would say they have an interest in fighting the Legion.

 

And by that argument, if Ulfric were to assassinate Tullius, then the Imperials would have no support. A number of Falkreath's population are stormcloak supporters, Morthal and Whiterun are neutral, Markarth has its own problems.

 

And kradus, that makes sense. I said that the only way to win is to eliminate the support base of the enemy.

The people in Riften who support the Empire suspiciously end up in jail for it...so obviously the Stormcloaks have more support in Riften than the Empire. But my point was that there's very little support for the war in the common people (which supposedly is who the Stormcloaks are fighting for) and you can't fight a war without soldiers who are willing to fight it. If Ulfric were to assasinate Tullius I don't think it would matter much honestly. The emperor could easily just send down another general to take his place. Tullius isn't as pivotal to the Legion as Ulfric is to the Stormcloaks. He may be an influential person in Skyrim due to his position, but it's because of his position more than the man himself (although I personally find him to be a strong and capable leader).

 

A rebellion of emotional, angry people led by an inspiring hero type suffers far more from losing it's leader than a disciplined military structure with a chain of command in place to fill positions when casualties occur. Rikke would probably temporarily fill in for Tullius until either her official promotion to general or a replacement arrives from Cyrodiil. Regardless, the Legion isn't going to break apart because their CO dies. Legionnaires didn't sign on to fight for Tullius but rather out of either loyalty to the Empire itself or some other reasons. Legionnaires don't swear loyalty to Tullius (rather just the officers in command) like Stormcloaks have to swear loyalty to Ulfric specifically.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

Dawnstar's people don't really give a crap about the war. Skald is the only one and he's very unpopular for it so don't expect Dawnstar to keep fighting. Riften is also generally uninterested in the war. Laila supports Ulfric but is more concerned about Riften's affairs than the Stormcloak cause and the people are too busy complaining about the corruption in their own city to care about the war. Meanwhile, Winterhold's population of 5 is completely useless in fighting a rebellion. The hardcore Stormcloaks are pretty much all based in Windhelm, and one hold isn't going to hold out against the Legion.

I was talking politically. The people in the TES universe have no say in politics. And in Riften, we know that there are various nobles (Including the Jarls family) who are strongly against the Empire, so I would say they have an interest in fighting the Legion.

 

And by that argument, if Ulfric were to assassinate Tullius, then the Imperials would have no support. A number of Falkreath's population are stormcloak supporters, Morthal and Whiterun are neutral, Markarth has its own problems.

 

And kradus, that makes sense. I said that the only way to win is to eliminate the support base of the enemy.

The people in Riften who support the Empire suspiciously end up in jail for it...so obviously the Stormcloaks have more support in Riften than the Empire. But my point was that there's very little support for the war in the common people (which supposedly is who the Stormcloaks are fighting for) and you can't fight a war without soldiers who are willing to fight it. If Ulfric were to assasinate Tullius I don't think it would matter much honestly. The emperor could easily just send down another general to take his place. Tullius isn't as pivotal to the Legion as Ulfric is to the Stormcloaks. He may be an influential person in Skyrim due to his position, but it's because of his position more than the man himself (although I personally find him to be a strong and capable leader).

 

A rebellion of emotional, angry people led by an inspiring hero type suffers far more from losing it's leader than a disciplined military structure with a chain of command in place to fill positions when casualties occur. Rikke would probably temporarily fill in for Tullius until either her official promotion to general or a replacement arrives from Cyrodiil. Regardless, the Legion isn't going to break apart because their CO dies. Legionnaires didn't sign on to fight for Tullius but rather out of either loyalty to the Empire itself or some other reasons. Legionnaires don't swear loyalty to Tullius (rather just the officers in command) like Stormcloaks have to swear loyalty to Ulfric specifically.

 

In regards to the first point, i never said that the Stormcloaks were democratic or fighting for the people. They are in fact fighting for the Nordic Aristocracy, and draw most of their support from a wide varited of people (including the armies of the Jarls).

 

The second point actually undermines the theory of permanat revolution- that once a revolution begins, it will not stop until the people get what they wanted (or that's part of it). We see that now in Egypt.

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

Dawnstar's people don't really give a crap about the war. Skald is the only one and he's very unpopular for it so don't expect Dawnstar to keep fighting. Riften is also generally uninterested in the war. Laila supports Ulfric but is more concerned about Riften's affairs than the Stormcloak cause and the people are too busy complaining about the corruption in their own city to care about the war. Meanwhile, Winterhold's population of 5 is completely useless in fighting a rebellion. The hardcore Stormcloaks are pretty much all based in Windhelm, and one hold isn't going to hold out against the Legion.

I was talking politically. The people in the TES universe have no say in politics. And in Riften, we know that there are various nobles (Including the Jarls family) who are strongly against the Empire, so I would say they have an interest in fighting the Legion.

 

And by that argument, if Ulfric were to assassinate Tullius, then the Imperials would have no support. A number of Falkreath's population are stormcloak supporters, Morthal and Whiterun are neutral, Markarth has its own problems.

 

And kradus, that makes sense. I said that the only way to win is to eliminate the support base of the enemy.

The people in Riften who support the Empire suspiciously end up in jail for it...so obviously the Stormcloaks have more support in Riften than the Empire. But my point was that there's very little support for the war in the common people (which supposedly is who the Stormcloaks are fighting for) and you can't fight a war without soldiers who are willing to fight it. If Ulfric were to assasinate Tullius I don't think it would matter much honestly. The emperor could easily just send down another general to take his place. Tullius isn't as pivotal to the Legion as Ulfric is to the Stormcloaks. He may be an influential person in Skyrim due to his position, but it's because of his position more than the man himself (although I personally find him to be a strong and capable leader).

 

A rebellion of emotional, angry people led by an inspiring hero type suffers far more from losing it's leader than a disciplined military structure with a chain of command in place to fill positions when casualties occur. Rikke would probably temporarily fill in for Tullius until either her official promotion to general or a replacement arrives from Cyrodiil. Regardless, the Legion isn't going to break apart because their CO dies. Legionnaires didn't sign on to fight for Tullius but rather out of either loyalty to the Empire itself or some other reasons. Legionnaires don't swear loyalty to Tullius (rather just the officers in command) like Stormcloaks have to swear loyalty to Ulfric specifically.

 

In regards to the first point, i never said that the Stormcloaks were democratic or fighting for the people. They are in fact fighting for the Nordic Aristocracy, and draw most of their support from a wide varited of people (including the armies of the Jarls).

 

The second point actually undermines the theory of permanat revolution- that once a revolution begins, it will not stop until the people get what they wanted (or that's part of it). We see that now in Egypt.

The Stormcloaks and their leaders say they are fighting for the people almost like it's their motto. It would be more accurate to say they want the people to fight for them however.

 

Egypt's rebellion is unlikely to turn out very well in the end due to the tendencies of people in the Middle East in general to fall victim to tyranny, war and internal strife as a result of poverty, religious extremism and the self-interested aristocracy and foreign meddling. Not really a prime example of how you want something like the Stormcloak rebellion to turn out in the long term. That said, what the Stormcloaks want more than anything else is the repeal of the WGC. In the short term you can overthrow the Empire and get it but weaken yourself in the long term or you can tough it out for the time being and work with the Empire to take down the root of the problem by winning the next Great War and accomplishing the same thing.