Imperial VS Stormcloak

[sisterof]

Forgive me the extra lack of eloquence, it's that hour of the morning.
I think I already said my conclusions on that 9..13? post. About it being about choosing what fits the character the most, blabla, et cetera, you know my arguments. :biggrin:

The only thing I'd like to reiterate is that, since either side has about the same chances of defeating the Thalmor and so on, and are equally morally ambiguous, our characters have to choose what they think is the best political situation for the future in terms of Tamriel's structure. Does you character defend an all-encompassing empire or not? Personally, not as any of my characters but as a player from this boring world of ours, since TES is a fantasy game, I don't see the value of the Empire without is ties to the Gods, as I pointed out before. It is already dead politically. Why does it even exist if not because the Emperor is special in a supernatural way? Take out the god-factor, why want to unify the provinces under a single banner? We could just have allies, European Union style. I think that's the path of any evolving society - but bear in mind I'm an anarcho-communist, so centralized powers go quite against my core beliefs of what constitutes a mature society. Now if you throw some sparkles and divinities in my story, I'll gladly go with "Long live the Emperor, chosen of Akatosh!". :P Now, I don't know if Bethesda is ready to make a political evolution with TES. Maybe we're gonna be living a mixture of feudalism and imperialism to the end of days because the lore is structured this way.

@Lithium Flower: Is it too big to put here? What about each of us read it, add/fix stuff and then we start the new thread with it as the very first new post(s) ? So anyone who comes along can know clearly where we stopped.

Edit: OMFG is this post editing tool utterly buggy or am I just incredibly hare-brained? I'm not sure I want an answer.

Edited March 13, 2013 by sisterof

[fraquar]

I'd never, never base a decision based purely on politics - i.e:

 

I am supporting a Presidential candidate just because he's of a political party and not what he brings to the table. Never gonna happen.

 

I am supporting England just because they are the Empire, even though what they bring to the table for me is nothing but contempt and over-zealous taxes that do little but fill royal coffers. Never gonna happen.

 

Those things happen with sheep, not someone exercising their own free will.

 

The reality is sometimes in life you have to make difficult choices, this is one of them.

[RighthandofSithis]

Because there are still 6 spots left, and only 2 of us waiting, I'll give my conclusion separate to my original post up there.

 

With the Empire in such dire straights, it would seem that virtually nothing can be done in order to save it. After the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire began to enter into a spiral of collapse, losing a number of territories, and the Aldmeri Dominion, which would wax as the Empire waned, was born.

 

Although, for a time, the Mede Dynasty was able to patch the Empire together, they were not enough to hold it forever. According to a few sources, it is implied that Elsweyr had rejoined the Empire under Titus Mede. This was not to last, and within the century, the spiral of collapse continued with Elsweyr leaving, and a few influential cities in Skyrim (Riften and Winterhold) being destroyed. it can also be assumed that during this time, the infighting in Hammerfell reopened. Morrowind was (and still, as of 4E201) recovering from the Red Year, and holds anti-Imperial sentiments anyway.

 

So, by the time of the Great War, the only provinces that were peaceful and prosperous were Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodiil. But this changed with the Great War. Cyrodiil was devastated, along with the Imperial Legions and Treasury (Evident in the Markarth Incident, where the Empire was unable to pay mercenaries, so according to Igmund, they offered Ulfric religious freedom). This is made considerably worse when, according to Cicero and his journals, the entire Imperial Province (Cyrodiil) is wrapped by Gang Wars and Civil Strife, making it impossible to rebuild. The situation is so bad that Valga Vinicia (The Publican for Falkreath) as well as Lucan and Camilla Valerius along with a number of other Imperials migrate to Skyrim to avoid the ongoing conflict and to find better opportunities.

 

This prospect of better opportunities are smashed by the uprising of the local Nords, which I need not go into much detail. So by looking at the entire situation of the Empire, every single blow it took, bringing it to the point where only High Rock is perhaps peaceful and prosperous (and Cicero places doubt on that as well), it would appear rather clearly to be on the verge of collapse.

 

Looking into the situation an independent Skyrim would find itself in, it may not be able to fully challenge the Dominion alone. However, it would at the very least be able to defend itself, which is considerably better than a ruined nation at the feet of the Dominion. Skyrim has a history of self sufficiency, and even now, it holds a number of farms and some fertile areas, making it possible that it could support itself. Similarly, Skyrim doesn't necessarily need to rely upon its own food. Trade will not stop simply because Skyrim became independent. Skyrim has considerable resources, such as ore, wood and arms, that it is able to export (perhaps to neighboring Kingdoms in High Rock) for coin and food.

 

And Skyrim is also, geographically, in a position to resist any Aldmeri invasions. Firstly, the two are on polar opposites of the continent, meaning that for the Dominion to invade, they would have to take and occupy all of either Hammerfell (which they tried, and is evidently impossible), High Rock (where the Bretons could prove an easier target, but can unite to pose a significant threat) or Cyrodiil (Perhaps the easiest option). However, there are two issues with that, one is that the Dominion would need to spend significant troops occupying Cyrodiil, and the other being the theory of Permanent Revolution. Skyrim's Revolutionary sentiment would have flowed into Bruma, a city in Cyrodiil with a high Nordic Population. This means that Bruma, without Imperial Support and the threat of complete capitulation to the Dominion, would probably look to Skyrim for defense in the long run, putting Skyrim at a major geographical advantage, as any force looking to invade Skyrim would need to march up the steep road to the city of Bruma, and from there would need to march through the mountains at Pale Pass, two maneuvers that would most probably end in defeat, or if we are feeling pessimistic, a Pyrrhic Victory. And even after such a move, the Dominion would need to traverse a frozen, mountainous land filled with dangerous wildlife.

 

This is why I believe Skyrim should become independent. At the very least, Skyrim would not need to carry the burdens of the dying Empire, and its resources could be put to good use rebuilding it. Some resistance, is better than no resistance.

[LoneLycan]

All big Empires die, in history of real life , in game :D Emporers and Assasins , Empirials and Stormcloaks , Rabbits & Werewolves, Goats & Sabre Cats & etc.. Final Result is always the same :D Skyrim will be Free!! :D

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The Empire is dead and dying. Skyrim will and shall live on to fight another day. The wrongs committed against the people will not be forgotten. Now the people fight back.

 

 

When it comes to an invasion of Skyrim the problem is the terrain. A pass is a choke point in which the invading army would have to move through the pass and force your troops to move into a column. In which case the Stormcloaks have shown they know how to use guerrilla tactics, by using these tactics if the AD's army is moving in a column through the narrow pass it makes it easier for the Stormcloaks to attack the column using hit and run tactics. Which would dwindle the resources of the AD's army down to almost nothing. The fact that its nearly always snowing in the passes proves that it makes it harder to move a large force through the pass. There’s no way for the AD to take the high ground because of the jagged, rocky mountains. The Nords know the mountains and the land better than the AD, they have been living there for generations. Moral of the AD would decrease and the soldiers wouldn’t be as hard pressed to continue moving. They would also be tired. They would be constantly chasing the Nords through the mountains and not be as focused on gaining a foothold in the pass. The Nords could take the time and sit by and let the army starve. If the AD made it through the pass (Which as I have explained would be very difficult, not impossible but hard) they would maybe take a fort, like fort Neugrad. Then they would need to gain the resources lost back and have to rebuild and possibly need reinforcements. Which would also give the Nords time to pick at the remaining soldiers and dwindle them down even further in number. This wouldn’t take that many Nords. Maybe a few hundred. I’m going to assume that the AD has several thousands of soldiers. The Nords I’m assuming (Game logistics aside) have a few thousand soldiers. Using part of their force would be enough to deplete the moral of the advancing army. Attacking via the hills, hit and run tactics would be the best choice. Hit the AD's army and making them chase the Nords into the hills where they can be ambushed by more forces. The Nords could also use the land itself against them. They could block off the pass and force the army to halt and clear the pass then ambush them. These are examples of things the Nords could do. The Celts did this to the Romans.

 

Now, for a sea invasion. If the AD's army were to attack via the sea of ghosts, they have to travel through arctic waters which is no picnic. Then they must gain a beachhead. Which there are several places they can do this but not for a large force. They would need to spread the forces out for several landings that would need to occur simultaneously. Then they could rendezvous at any given location large enough to support the numbers. Then during this time the Nords can, once again, use guerrilla tactics to halt the AD forces. If the AD successfully gains a beachhead the Nords could just barrage them with a large force. Initially, they could just attack supply lines and starve the AD's army but let’s pretend for a moment that the Nords do not do this. The AD has an established beachhead and a steady supply line. They could funnel reinforcements and establish a strong presence in Skyrim. The Nords have shown in the past that they can destroy large forces due to military prowess. The Nords know their land and aren’t so willing to allow someone else to invade it. Also the Nords are capable seamen which would allow them to harass the AD’s navy, not necessarily full on attacks but at least harass the supply ships making the moral of the AD’s army decrease. Much like the winter offensive the soviets put up against during WW II.

 

Skyrim cannot be invaded. The Empire is dying.

 

Not everyone in the empire is evil or bad. I wont deny that. Hadvar is a good man. But the things the Empire is allowing are disgusting and evil.

 

Northwatch keep is what turned me.

 

"Before we can wage a war upon our foes we must wage a war against our lesser selves. Cling to your higher voice and with it shatter your foes." - Galmar Stone-Fist

 

It is better to fight your foes when your prepared and capable. Keep them off balance.

Long Live Skyrim!

For Skyrim!

For Talos!

Edited March 13, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[LoneLycan]

The Empire is dead and dying. Skyrim will and shall live on to fight another day. The wrongs committed against the people will not be forgotten. Now the people fight back.

 

 

Exactly :biggrin: Stormcloaks will fight the Empire To the final End! And I'LL FEED ON THEIR CORPSEEEES!!!!! AHAHAHAH :biggrin: :devil:

Edited March 14, 2013 by LoneLycan

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

That Empire died with Martin, we've made that clear. When Martin sacrificed himself the dragonfires could no longer be lit by dragonborn emperors. Thus ending the true Empire of Talos. When the Septim line ended the Empire went with it.

 

Hadvar even admits that the Thalmor were doing their business in Skyrim before Ulfric started the rebellion. The fact that it was allowed was what pissed me off, not just that they were doing it, but that allowance.

 

Ulfric didn't invite the Thalmor into Skyrim. The Nord people stood up against a tyrannical and corrupt Empire and now are fighting to be free. Worshiping in secret isnt true freedom. If you were for freedom of religion then you would understand why the Stormcloaks are right, so obviously you don't.

 

Northwatch Keep. Thorald Greymane. Avultstein Greymane. Northwatch Prisoners.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

You obviously didnt read the thread, then you would understand what were arguing about.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

True, I cant deny that. But the fact is that it doesnt just excuse the Empires actions. And that wasnt my opinion, it was a statement. Freedom of religion is the freedom to openly exercise your religion. If you cant do it out in the open then its not freedom of religion.

 

Ulfric isnt a saint. But he's a true Nord.

 

The reachmen and the Nords have been fighting over the reach for centuries. Talos killed them. So did Ulfric.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I dont know you very well therefore my opinion of you is invalid.