The Karelian question

[HeyYou]

Problem becomes here, if the land IS returned, it sets a rather interesting precedent. Especially here in the states, as the Indian nations would IMMEDIATELY be pressing their claims to have their land returned to them. After all, they were here for thousands of years before the white man showed up, and booted them off.

Um, what? Seriously?

 

Do you really have no concept of how much land has already changed hands in the aftermath of WWII and the breakup of the USSR?

 

Do you really believe that there are legions of angry natives waiting patiently for a land dispute in the armpit of Russia, so they can – what? cite it as "precedent" and politely ask the Supreme Court to make the "white man" go back to Europe?

 

Also, Karelia goes to Sweden. That's the way it's always been in my Empire: Total War games.

 

Given the american penchant for litigation? Yes, I believe that is EXACTLY what would happen. Same goes for Israel returning lands it 'conquered' in the 1968 war.

[zegh8578]

karelia is not unique

 

i know its important to finns, but prussia is important to germans, lappland to the lapps, herjedalen and jemtland to norwegians, the basque country to the basques, northern ireland to the irish, tuva to the tuvans, and so forth and so on

 

ussr even took and kept small parts of estonia

 

territorial disputes are _impossible_ to solve simply by handing the land over. by now karelia is "invaded" by russians, so if it came into finnish control, what would you do with a now sudden huge russian population?

 

like i said, i realize karelia is important to finns. but nothing can be done. you guys "legitimately" lost it in war. if you want it back, you could try to fight for it :D

the same reason we arent demanding herjedalen back from sweden. if we want it back, we better be prepared to face the swedish armed forces for it.

[Marxist ßastard]

Do you really believe that there are legions of angry natives waiting patiently for a land dispute in the armpit of Russia?

Yes

Okay, just checking.

[Beriallord]

What is conquered is conquered, unless Finland wants to fight to get it back, they must not want it that bad. They should have picked better allies in WW2.

[HeyYou]

Do you really believe that there are legions of angry natives waiting patiently for a land dispute in the armpit of Russia?

Yes

Okay, just checking.

 

:laugh:

 

Do you live in the states by any chance? If you don't, please be aware that litigation seems to have become the nations most popular pass-time. Look at some of the TRULY SILLY stuff making its way thru the courts, it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad, people will sue for ANY reason at all. Given the precedent giving back land won in conflict would represent, it wouldn't be just the native americans taking that, and running with it for all it was worth, I am sure the Palestinians would have a field day with it as well.

[Aurielius]

Do you live in the states by any chance? If you don't, please be aware that litigation seems to have become the nations most popular pass-time. Look at some of the TRULY SILLY stuff making its way thru the courts, it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad, people will sue for ANY reason at all. Given the precedent giving back land won in conflict would represent, it wouldn't be just the native americans taking that, and running with it for all it was worth, I am sure the Palestinians would have a field day with it as well.

Just a droll thought but if we could find a 'real' owner to the land of Israel wouldn't that be the Canaanites? And I think that the Philistines, Sidonians, Hivities, Hittites, Amorities, Perizzites, and the Jebusites would probably show up in court disputing even that claim if we could find any.

[raatorotta]

Karelia is part of history. What happened during world war 2, should be forgotten already. Karelia was part Grand Duchy of Finland (under Russian control) since 1812 and part of independent Finland only from 1917 to 1944. So Karelia was belong to Finland only 27 years. The lines of Karelia was drawn long before that, by Novgorod and Sweden, and Finland as country didn't even exist when fate of Karelia was already decided.

[Jopo1980]

Yes, but the Karelian territory did belong to the Swedish Finland AND the Grand Duchy under Russian rule, so in essence the Russian Czar gave the Finnish Karelia to the Finns as part of the autonomous Grand Duchy and when we declared independence, the territory followed into the newly independent Finnish republic. So historically the land was populated by Finns and was administratively part of Finland for a great deal of time.

 

It is true that Karelia is now Russified, populated by ethnic Russians and in case Karelia was returned, we should grant those Russians Finnish citizenship, in which case those few hundred thousand people inhabiting that area would have dual citizenship. Assimilating those Russians would not be such a big problem, but the financial cost of bringing Karelia up to the Finnish standard after decades of Russian mismanagement and neglect (I´ve visited there and seen what it looks like, its a sad sight) could become a similar problem to Finland as East-Germany is for the Germans or North-Korea potentially would be for the Koreans.

 

I have no doubt that Karelia would be in better hands under Finnish rule as I´ve seen the conditions that prevail there under Russian rule. For example the historic Viipuri (Russian name Vyborg) castle is in a state of total disrepair, although efforts to restore it have been done, with Finnish funds I believe and the EU is financing other assistance projects there. Why must we fund the reconstruction of Karelia, although it is populated by Russians and is under Russian rule? We should not spend a single euro on Karelia until it is returned to us. If the Russians want to keep it, then let them fund it´s maintenance, which they seem unable to do considering the financial problems of the Russian state. Besides, to the Russians, Karelia is nothing but a distant low priority area on the outskirts of St. Petersburg, whereas under Finnish rule it was an important economic center and one of the key areas of Finland. Also according to polls, some Russians in the Karelian areas would favor joining Finland, no doubt lured by the better standard of living and EU citizenship.

 

Currently no political party in Finland is willing to take up the Karelian question in fear of angering the Russians. Our political elite is still in some way Finlandicized, cowering before Russian might, although the days of the Soviet threat are gone. I believe that it will take a completely new generation of politicians to stop cowering to the Russians.

 

For, example, polls in Finland may be horribly biased and leading, with questions like: "Would you wish for the return of Karelia, even if it means worsened relations with Russia?" or "Would you wish for NATO membership even if it means worsened relations with Russia or the targeting of Russian nuclear weapons on Finland?" It looks like the media and the politicians are still playing "the Moscow card" in internal politics, capitalizing on popular fears of Russia.

We cannot change the fact that Russia is our geopolitical neighbor, but we should NOT allow Russia to be a factor in deciding foreign policy, such as membership in NATO, which the Russians would oppose, but could do little to stop.

Estonia and the Baltic countries are already part of NATO, why are we still outside?

[Illuna]

well if we go really back in time i think karelia and finland and russia belonged to some ape clan that fouth for it against mammoths :rolleyes:

Tho there is guestion about karelia and some japanice island, there is no way to get it back. Im 99% sure that japan/ finland will never get theyr territory back unless they wana spend ton and ton of money and buy it back.

Considering current military might of Russia there is only 3 possible oponents for said country, thats China, America, India(multiple countrys in team) and even if sayd confrontation would occur only life after that who would have claim on any land on this earch would be roaches cos they can witstand like 10x times the radiation.

[Jopo1980]

The first Finns to inhabit the area now known as Finland arrived as hunter-gatherers from the Ural mountains at the end of the last ice age, so we have a pretty solid history of living in these territories.