Which faction is the best for humanity?

[Relativelybest]

 

This is because Bethesda doesn't give a s*** about world building in Fallout. What was campy in Fallout 3 got more campy and pathetic. They wasted so many opportunities with this game and this setting it's inexcusable

 

 

Actually, I really like Fallout 4. More than I liked Fallout 3, and I liked that one a lot. My character is level 90 and I've only started modding the game now, because for the first time Bethesda managed to make a game that - in my opinion - doesn't really need a lot of fixing.

 

It's just a bit weird that the entire world of Fallout has been standing still for two centuries even though so much technology and knowledge survived. I mean, that was weird in the older games as well - things should have gotten better over time. Fallout 4 just makes it really obvious, because a considerable part of it really feels like a game about rebuilding the world.

 

I don't even think this is Bethesda's fault, rather it's sorta built into the concept from the start. They can't really take it to its logical conclusion, because then it isn't Fallout anymore.

 

it's inexcusable for a company renowned for their world building. Maybe they're only competent at Elder Scrolls?

 

 

I dunno, this is pretty much what I expect from them. Bethesda builds great worlds, but I wouldn't say they are that good at world building. They make delightful sandboxes full of interesting stuff to find and play with, but it's not like I expect all of it to make sense when I take a step back and think about it.

 

That's the thing about FO4 and New Vegas: New Vegas didn't need a savior; everyone was fighting for their piece of the pie but the world was going forward according to someone's vision. FO4 is designed to be a setting so pathetic it plays to the most simple minded power fantasies.

 

 

Kinda like Elder Scrolls, eh?

 

Of course, I never liked New Vegas. I mean, I get why other people do, but it just didn't have any of the stuff I really love about Bethesda's games. I don't really care about factions or even the story at the end of the day. I just want to adventure around an open world and explore old ruins for no reason other than curiosity - something New Vegas seemed to be actively discouraging.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Relativelybest

[CiderMuffin]

 

This is because Bethesda doesn't give a s*** about world building in Fallout. What was campy in Fallout 3 got more campy and pathetic. They wasted so many opportunities with this game and this setting it's inexcusable

Actually, I really like Fallout 4. More than I liked Fallout 3, and I liked that one a lot. My character is level 90 and I've only started modding the game now, because for the first time Bethesda managed to make a game that - in my opinion - doesn't really need a lot of fixing.

 

It's just a bit weird that the entire world of Fallout has been standing still for two centuries even though so much technology and knowledge survived. I mean, that was weird in the older games as well - things should have gotten better over time. Fallout 4 just makes it really obvious, because a considerable part of it really feels like a game about rebuilding the world.

 

I don't even think this is Bethesda's fault, rather it's sorta built into the concept from the start. They can't really take it to its logical conclusion, because then it isn't Fallout anymore.

 

it's inexcusable for a company renowned for their world building. Maybe they're only competent at Elder Scrolls?

I dunno, this is pretty much what I expect from them. Bethesda builds great worlds, but I wouldn't say they are that good at world building. They make delightful sandboxes full of interesting stuff to find and play with, but it's not like I expect all of it to make sense when I take a step back and think about it.

 

That's the thing about FO4 and New Vegas: New Vegas didn't need a savior; everyone was fighting for their piece of the pie but the world was going forward according to someone's vision. FO4 is designed to be a setting so pathetic it plays to the most simple minded power fantasies.

Kinda like Elder Scrolls, eh?

 

Of course, I never liked New Vegas. I mean, I get why other people do, but it just didn't have any of the stuff I really love about Bethesda's games. I don't really care about factions or even the story at the end of the day. I just want to adventure around an open world and explore old ruins for no reason other than curiosity - something New Vegas seemed to be actively discouraging.

 

Thing about the Commonwealth is we have reasons why things are like they are. For 100 years the people relied on the Minutemen for protection because it was a volunteer army that always seemed powerful but once they fell things went to hell. Then you have the Institute scavenging and collecting any technology they want which stops people from finding anything useful.

 

With the minutemen gone settlements were left defenseless and groups like the Gunners came in, no one could hold up against super mutants anymore and raider groups from outside the commonwealth came in, some minutemen turned to raiding to live and settlers who lost everything became hostile. Settlements like Quincy fell and farms were forced to pay off raiders with supplies.

 

Commonwealth was on the road to rebuilding but infighting between settlements and the lose of the only military force sent it down the road to ruin. Didn't help when paranoia of the Institute's synth spies started and Diamond City exiling all it's ghouls which caused more raiders and the lawless town of Goodneighbor to be founded.

[cossayos]

 

Didn't help when paranoia of the Institute's synth spies started and Diamond City exiling all it's ghouls which caused more raiders and the lawless town of Goodneighbor to be founded.

 

 

Goodneighbour is no more or less lawless than Diamond City. It's not as if people are killing each other on the streets. It's a save haven for ghouls. That's how I see it anyway.

[mcxar]

Well you have the very communist and very totalitarian BoS, we know how that works out in the real world, the very Gestapo/WW2 germany (not so nazi but kinda nazi) style Institute, elitist and always going forwards in progress at the cost of life, extremly totalitarian, the revolutionary socialist party on Minuteman, more in tune with the modern world, but alas a faction that can easily be decimated at any minute by the Institute or the BoS (they are already infiltrated by the time you start the game by the Institute), and rly is little in the step on toes you need for the BoS to go on a cleansing frenzy against a faction, probably only reason the minuteman even exit is because BoS didnt give 2 shits about Boston before getting reports of the Institute precense there.

 

I wont bother with the Railroad since they are pro robots and that leaves humanity behind on their ideals, they will eventually just drown on their philosophy having to choose continually person over ai and be completely replaced by the Institute, or be destroyed by the BoS, is just a bunch of people hiding on a big room anyways, weakest of all factions.

 

Now there is a last 100% human faction (which is your enemy), brutal but with order, armed properly and can stand more ground than the minutemen ever will, they have a political structure, ranks for the militia, they even have the supermutants in check, and sure they shoot your face on sight but The Raiders ARE actually what humanity is and are the proper citizens of the world we mindlessly invade, sure some are quite insane but wouldnt you be on their situation? this faction has majority of the world population by far, besides the minutemen is the only not totalitarian faction, and they are probably the closest picture of humanity going into a holocaust of the size FO portrays, the weak die the strong survive which is the way its always been even today.

 

Now the sole survivor is sometimes (FO 3 and 4) someone that has had no contact with the outside world, does not agree to how the worlds runs now and goes on a citizen killing spree to prove his morals and points of view and to help the lesser populations, at least in FO 3 (good guy mode) and FO 4 you are basically the reincarnation of Hitler pushing to make the other factions "happen"

[Moraelin]

Thing about the Commonwealth is we have reasons why things are like they are. For 100 years the people relied on the Minutemen for protection because it was a volunteer army that always seemed powerful but once they fell things went to hell. Then you have the Institute scavenging and collecting any technology they want which stops people from finding anything useful.

 

With the minutemen gone settlements were left defenseless and groups like the Gunners came in, no one could hold up against super mutants anymore and raider groups from outside the commonwealth came in, some minutemen turned to raiding to live and settlers who lost everything became hostile. Settlements like Quincy fell and farms were forced to pay off raiders with supplies.

 

Commonwealth was on the road to rebuilding but infighting between settlements and the lose of the only military force sent it down the road to ruin. Didn't help when paranoia of the Institute's synth spies started and Diamond City exiling all it's ghouls which caused more raiders and the lawless town of Goodneighbor to be founded.

Well, that and institute isn't just scavenging the good stuff. They're also

 

- murderizing people for it. Read the UP terminals. They thought some kid found some working pre-war software, so they showed up and demanded it. When those guys wouldn't give it to them -- because they didn't actually HAVE it -- the institute just started killing them for it. It looks like it was easily the largest settlement there was on the map, and now it's empty.

 

And you also hear from Nick for example about how Gen 1 and Gen 2 synths kill whole settlements for scrap.

 

- as a result, people are not just not finding good tech, they're AFRAID of finding good tech, because the Institute might kill them for it. Again, read the UP terminals.

 

- tested what sounds like a prototype courser in a major town, causing a bloodbath.

 

- actively destabilized the Commonwealth by shooting every single delegate when the settlements tried to unite and form a local government. United they could have put up some defense against raiders, but things basically fell back to pieces and back to being easy pickings.

 

- are fuelling a whole paranoia with their murderizing people and replacing them with synths. Again, destabilizing the situation.

 

- can also attack you just for being friends with someone in the railroad. Carrington and IIRC Dean both make the case that the Institute didn't just attack the Railroad HQ and safehouses, they also went for their friends and family members.

 

- have no problem with starting an armed assault on a major trade hub just because one businessman there is running a railroad operation

 

- were still kidnapping people to experiment on the with FEV by the time you got off ice; it only stopped when their chief scientist caused a massive incident and deffected

 

- was still using deranged half-cyborg as their hitman, ignoring the massive collateral damage he does. When you have to follow his trail, you even find traders and whatnot that he killed in his way. Not even to take over a location, but just on his way to some other location.

 

Etc.

 

There's no way that the commonwealth can be anything else than a dark ages warzone, when a faction with superior technology and firepower is waging that kind of terror campaign and ACTIVELY working on keeping it in chaos.

[Moraelin]

I wont bother with the Railroad since they are pro robots and that leaves humanity behind on their ideals, they will eventually just drown on their philosophy having to choose continually person over ai and be completely replaced by the Institute, or be destroyed by the BoS, is just a bunch of people hiding on a big room anyways, weakest of all factions.

Actually, I think the Railroad is odious even IF you like robots AND ignore the fact that the Railroad leader sees the human settlers of the Commonwealth as a bigger enemy than the Institute. Or the fact that the Railroad actually places some synths as raiders, to prey upon the rest of the commonwealth. See, Gabriel.

 

The problem is that your memories define who you are and your personality. Everything that is YOU as opposed to a generic body is in that head. You even flick a switch to turn on the lights just because a connection exists in your head based on previous experience that it causes the result you wish.

 

Think about it. When you transfer Curie's data into G5-19's brain, who do you have with you afterwards? Curie or G5-19? It's Curie, isn't it? G5-19's body is just used for someone else.

 

And Beth went out of its way to make it clear not only in the base game, but also in Automatron AND Far Harbor. So hopefully the player gets it.

 

And the abominable thing is, the Railroad knows this. Check out the conversations with Glory about it. Sure, when it's her friend being used as a body for someone else, it's suddenly all about G5-19's sacrifice.

 

So really, that's what the Railroad is doing: it's running a mass operation of goading synths into being erased from existence, and having their bodies reused for something else. They're not helping those robots at all. They make themselves feel better for working out sins of their youth or loss of loved synths, by running essentially a bigger mass-murder operation than the Institute.

 

Also add the fact that their operation routinely leaves synths brain-dead. A fact that I'm under the impression they don't actually tell synths when they're goading them to take the operation. They certainly didn't tell ME while I was helping get a synth there, so I can make an informed choice about whether I'm ok with that.

 

So, yeah, THAT was a faction I had no regrets about wiping out.

[charwo]

 

 

I don't even think this is Bethesda's fault, rather it's sorta built into the concept from the start. They can't really take it to its logical conclusion, because then it isn't Fallout anymore.

 

You can have a civilized Fallout, Both New Vegas and Fallout 2 were all about adventuring on the outskirts of civilized society. In Fallout 2 you have loads of civilized and rebuilt CITIES: Vault City, Redding, San Fransisco, Shady Sands. I wouldn't have minded the lack of settlements if Boston itself was a functioning city state, maybe with Fenway Park as a Citadel or the chief marketplace. The is actually the problem with Bethesda Fallout titles: it's LESS civilized on the east coast than it was on the West coast 130 years ago.

 

Ideally, they would have seen Fallout Doomsday and said "Former USA forming a loose confederation of cities nominally under US control on the eastern Seaboard from Washington through Boston barely holding on by it's fingernails? What a great idea!"

 

Or they could have made Fallout 4 a prequel set in late 2077, with multiple endings determining if say, the Military is able to hold onto control of Boston, if Boston becomes the depopulated mess seen in Fallout 4 or a functioning nucleus of a post war state, USA or not. Determine whether the Institute becomes a tech hoarder society or helps the people outside, foil the Vault experiments or let them succeed. Or even make a game about the rise of the Minutemen repulsing the Supermutants in 2180.

 

If there a problem in making a Fallout game not Fallout enough, it's the date that's a problem. This simple act of thinking about how the apocalypse described and how to milk it for all it's worth logically takes 5 minutes.

 

Admittedly, I've never liked what Bethesda sells, I'm here because I've been playing Fallout since 1999. This game was so bad as an RPG it makes me wonder if this is my last Fallout game. My personal head cannon has always fudged dates and a few details (condensing the post war timeline, my Vault Dweller didn't blow up bases because the tech was valuable, Arroyo being founded by Vault 13 exiles but not my Vault Dweller because she'd never do something so asinine) but Fallout 4 is a game I want to disregard entirely, not because it's a bad story but because there are so many BETTER things Bethesda could have done with the premise.

 

And as far as which faction is best, If you get a mod that makes the Minutemen take over the Institute rather than blow it up, that would probably be the best possible ending. I just HATE HATE HATE having to blow up valuable tech and manufacturing capacity in a Scav's world.

[tartarsauce2]

and that... is why I'm doing the obsessing I'm doing
because we kind of have a set of simple answers, but I wanted something more complex, like the original fallout 1-2, where what you do matters going forwards but it's okay you're not totally screwed if you choose to help one group over another or vice versa and you know what you're getting

 

it's really obvious how people are thinking about it because we're all so much on the same page, it's too easy :p

Edited September 6, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[mcxar]

Think about it. When you transfer Curie's data into G5-19's brain, who do you have with you afterwards? Curie or G5-19? It's Curie, isn't it? G5-19's body is just used for someone else.

 

And Beth went out of its way to make it clear not only in the base game, but also in Automatron AND Far Harbor. So hopefully the player gets it.

 

And the abominable thing is, the Railroad knows this. Check out the conversations with Glory about it. Sure, when it's her friend being used as a body for someone else, it's suddenly all about G5-19's sacrifice.

 

So really, that's what the Railroad is doing: it's running a mass operation of goading synths into being erased from existence, and having their bodies reused for something else. They're not helping those robots at all. They make themselves feel better for working out sins of their youth or loss of loved synths, by running essentially a bigger mass-murder operation than the Institute.

 

Also add the fact that their operation routinely leaves synths brain-dead. A fact that I'm under the impression they don't actually tell synths when they're goading them to take the operation. They certainly didn't tell ME while I was helping get a synth there, so I can make an informed choice about whether I'm ok with that.

 

So, yeah, THAT was a faction I had no regrets about wiping out.

 

 

Well i never paid too much attention to all this, didnt even knew all this info, thanks for bringing this all up so well Moraelin, i just did the RR on my first play but i was bothered on their modus operandi from the get go and just wanted to be done with them as soon as possible, on the second which im currently at to check the Far Harbor and Nuka world dlc (just started nuka, finished FH) i just quickly did the stuff they ask for to advance the main quest and was again done, right now im doing the brotherhood side of things, looking forward to the sure to come "destroy the RR" mission lol

[Moraelin]

@charwo

Well, personally, it doesn't bother me all that much if the collapse of civilization I'm playing in is immediately after the nukes or for some other reason. Mad Max worked well enough as a setup without being set after some nuclear war.

 

Also, Fallout 2 happens in 2241. So that seing signs of incipient civilization is more like 40 years ago on the west coast, not 130 years ago. And even that place has plenty of places which are somewhat less than civilized. So even without the recent collapse of the commonwealth back into anarchy for other reasons, the difference isn't THAT huge as to be unexplainable.

 

And honestly, there are plenty of precedents where civilization doesn't rebuild that fast. After the lesser devastation in the collapse of the Bronze Age for example, we see Greece flat out forgetting to write or build much stuff until it comes out some 400 years later with a new alphabet they got from the Phoenicians. Hell, it took half of that even to get more than a bunch of villages on mountaintops in the area. So yeah, they didn't need a nuke, just the raids of the Sea People and the Dorian migration flat out plunge a huge chunk of world into a darker age than Fallout ever was. And it lasted for 400 years.

 

That said, I never understood why Beth doesn't move the date backwards if they want more radiation and anarchy. It's not like there's much of a connection between the events in FO2 and those of FO3 and FO4, so they could have put their game in 2177 if they wanted to.

 

Not that it bothers me much, as I was saying, but it would have probably stopped a whole bunch of people from complaining about how they totally can't live with the story being anything else than bunnies farting rainbows by 2287 :wink: