LE Static Level System

[Locane]

The one thing that has always bothered me about Elder Scrolls games:

 

Variable level encounters.

 

This is one of the tenants of the series - it's there so that you can have a smooth and not-so-jagged experience playing the game. Because the game is a "sandbox", the thought is that all of your quests and encounters must be adapted to your current level - that way the game is not too hard and not too easy. The developers can't predict where you're going to go, or what you're going to want to do, so they just have to make the enemies you fight generated based on your character level.

 

I have a serious problem with this philosophy, and it's simple: It lacks verisimilitude.

 

You can click the word if you don't know what it means, but it's the perception of plausibility, reality, and realistic probability. Superman is not a human that flies, he's an alien that defies Earth's gravity. There's an explanation that can fit relatively well (if not perfectly) with the rest of reality.

 

 

The problem with Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, is that these level generated encounters end up out shining the major story arcs and characters in the game - I had more trouble killing the Blood Horker's battlemage than I did Alduin - that should NOT happen. The fact that the game is OBVIOUSLY generating harder monsters for me to kill when i'm clearing out a Draugr dungeon is hard to ignore. Is my character, just by chance, suddenly finding all of the really hard dungeons that would have owned me when I was level 5? No. No way.

 

The real issue here is that it minimizes my sense of accomplishment. I slew dragons left and right, killed Alduin himself - twice - and I'm having trouble with a bandit orc winging a two-handed axe around like he's trying to hit a piniata. Are you trying to tell me the bandit orc could have slain Alduin, Skyrim? Part of the fun of leveling up in a game is going back to that dungeon that beat your ass when you were level 2 and blowing everything in it up. Clear challenge, accompanied with the sense of accomplishment that comes with overcoming it.

 

The problem with Skyrim is that this sense of accomplishment is diminished by the fact that you realize you're not actually accomplishing anything within the game world, you're just fighting enemies that are generated for your level. You never get the feeling that something is above you, because it never is. You can do the entire game at level 5.

 

 

Anyway - the whole reason I'm posting here, is because there are mods for Morrowind (and I assume Oblivion) that correct this - they go through the game, make some areas hard, and others easy. The world is static, and does not change just because you're walking around in it - if you show up in a camp of vampires at level 5, they're going to pwn your sorry little ass. If you walk through some level 1 bandits at level 48, you're going to melt their faces off just looking at them. This is much easier to believe - it supports verisimilitude, and makes your accomplishments in the game that much sweeter. Killing Alduin should REQUIRE you to be really high level - he should be a flying badass of destruction, more powerful than any of the things you faced back on the mortal plane.

 

I'm putting the request out there to modders - fix Skyrim so that it doesn't feel hollow and empty from the lack of plausibility. Being constantly reminded that the game is catering to me by generating like-leveled mobs is demoralizing.

 

--Locane

[raiden25]

Risen is an open world game similar to Skyrim that had static levels of enemies. The big difference between that game and this though is that in Skyrim you're encouraged to explore everywhere early on but in Risen straying from the early game low level path could get you killed easily (though was always fun!).

 

I agree with what you say, but I don't think it would turn out as well as you think. The game basically detects your level when you enter an area and spawns enemies according to your level, and every time you revisit that area the enemies will be the same. If you take away that system then players will be forced to go down a narrow path to avoid encounters that are too difficult for them, and unlike Risen conquering these tougher battles would not yield any significant benefits.

 

The system is flawed, but I don't think that static levels will fix it.

[Luizwsp]

Static level would require players to give up some dungeons, not beeing able to complete them at that time, if their level is much lower compared to the enemies. That would make tha players feel weak at that moment, and retur later, actually feeling that they really got stronger in the mean time. That would really be a nice touch. Besides, this makes easier to know wich enemy is stronger than the other (like The Alduin example you gave).

 

But what would actually happen, is that you would miss lots of dungeons for the low lvl player, and get stronger in some other area. And when you finally find that little cave, it'd be too easy for you, and no fun at all.

 

IMO, I think the answer is to make a mix of the two strategies, making good use of the advantages of both philosofies:

 

They should just fix the enemies "base levels"! Any time you enter a dungeon, or find a dragon, the level of the enemies would still take the player level under consideration, but stronger enemies would have 5 or 10 levels on top of yours, while normal enemies would have exacly your level, or lower. Again, using your example, Alduin should have a "base level" much higher than any simple orc.

 

So, any time you encounter the Orc or Alduin, you would always feel that Alduin is more powerful.

 

 

Example:

Alduin level is Player level + 10, blind orc level is player level + 2

You face Alduin at level 40, Alduin is level 50, that should be hard

You face the Orc at level 68, he is level 70, but he wont fell as tough as Alduin felt, got it?

[droscoe2]

Don't worry, Dynamic Leveled Lists will surely be created for Skyrim. Check it out for Oblivion if you don't know what it is.

[Lirezh]

Skyrim is unrewarding.

Know what I'd want ?

I want to try take on a too-hard dungeon, using massive potions and scrolls to beat the hard enemies.

Then I want to get those big soul gems, those strong new (too strong actually) magical skillbooks or the great potions I can't buy.

I want to make a small fortune sellung those times.

THAT would be rewarding.

I also want to be able to buy those Master level spells, no matter if I am Adept or even lower. Why not sell the to me ? That's just stupid..

But yea, I am sure the average console player would *censored* about Skyrim if he could not beat the hard dragons in his first hour of gameplay or if he could buy a spellbook he can't use for a week.

It's still f*cked up.

 

 

Right now I can do all I want, I'll get those items intended for me. Weapons levels for me and no matter how hard I try, no enemy will be too hard to beat with my level 2 character.

My brother just completed most quests and the main storyline, he's just level 24 and wonders what was going on.

->UNREWARDING<-

 

 

More than anything else Skyrim needs a static leveling mod (a clever one) including static item placements.

We had such mods with Oblivion which was as stupid leveled as Skyrim, ok it was even worse but not much worse.

 

I could not see anyone working on it, I guess it's a creation kit problem ?

[bazzatron]

Static level would require players to give up some dungeons, not beeing able to complete them at that time, if their level is much lower compared to the enemies. That would make tha players feel weak at that moment, and retur later, actually feeling that they really got stronger in the mean time. That would really be a nice touch. Besides, this makes easier to know wich enemy is stronger than the other (like The Alduin example you gave).

 

But what would actually happen, is that you would miss lots of dungeons for the low lvl player, and get stronger in some other area. And when you finally find that little cave, it'd be too easy for you, and no fun at all.

 

IMO, I think the answer is to make a mix of the two strategies, making good use of the advantages of both philosofies:

 

They should just fix the enemies "base levels"! Any time you enter a dungeon, or find a dragon, the level of the enemies would still take the player level under consideration, but stronger enemies would have 5 or 10 levels on top of yours, while normal enemies would have exacly your level, or lower. Again, using your example, Alduin should have a "base level" much higher than any simple orc.

 

So, any time you encounter the Orc or Alduin, you would always feel that Alduin is more powerful.

 

 

Example:

Alduin level is Player level + 10, blind orc level is player level + 2

You face Alduin at level 40, Alduin is level 50, that should be hard

You face the Orc at level 68, he is level 70, but he wont fell as tough as Alduin felt, got it?

I thought it did do this? Some enemies are static. Certain regions get permanently set on you first visit. Some enemies are always x amount higher. Some are multipliers.

 

Actually, how old is this thread? Should have checked...