LE Mod making etiquette / philosophy

[csbx]

Quick question I'd like to hear your take on. For all of the dungeons and other internal cells I add with my mod, I am leaning toward marking all items/walls/furniture/architecture as 'do not show on map' resulting in there not being a convenient handy map available for the player when they tab into it. This reflects the way that I play the game (no enemy markers e.g.) and the way I think the content that I create should be experienced. I understand that many don't play the game like this.

 

Question: Is it bad practice to do this ? This isn't a wet finger in the air, but I am genuinely curious about whether or not there are good reasons not to proceed with this style of content creation.

 

Just to offer another example of what I mean, I am also marking enemies as 'doesn't effect stealth meter' because I think that player omniscience sabotages scary or just surprising moments in the game. Again, many others don't play the game like this and WANT to know magically that there are enemies near and where they are and that they're an enemy. Is this just a point of creative vision ? Or would this just annoy most players ?

Edited September 11, 2016 by csbx

[lofgren]

I wouldn't play it.

[TheMastersSon]

The only bad practice imo is being able to give players an option for something, and choosing instead to dictate your play style over everyone else's. The more styles you can accomodate with a mod the better, and if you can't easily add something as an option to one mod, consider making two versions of it.

 

IMO the loss of maps would cause less problems for fewer people than no or limited enemy detection. I think you'll lose a lot of potential users with that second one.

[csbx]

Just to clarify: enemies will still show up on your compass as markers like vanilla--it is only that you're not told if you're successfully sneaking or not. Ie. if you wander into a dark room and a creature can see you, your 'stealth eye' won't change. But it will become fairly obvious that something sees you using audio cues / the fact that a creature is hurtling toward you :D.

 

Thanks for the perspective.

 

I'd be curious what the reason why you--lofgren--wouldn't play it ? How do you know you would need a map ? Perhaps the areas are small enough to not need a map ? Or is it the stealth meter aspect ?

Edited September 11, 2016 by csbx

[thumbincubation]

I would find that interesting, as long as I knew about it ahead of time. I definitely wouldn't want to find out on the fly. That being said, if I was to guess at the best possible option, I'd lean toward MCM optional, so users can determine for themselves. Absent that, and I hadn't thought of it until I read it, TheMastersSon's idea of two separate versions. Still, as Skyrim becomes less challenging, something new is definitely refreshing.

[csbx]

What may not be clear about what I'm doing is that I care about balance--I don't think the player should feel totally effed over and lacking in resources. So if the changes I make do tend to make an area more difficult, I would balance this by making the enemies less abundant or easier. I'm interested in moving /where/ the challenge for the player resides. I don't think heaping hitpoints on enemies, e.g. is an effective way to create a challenge for the player--it's more of the same. But playing with things like the stealth meter may mean being a little more cautious and having to use ones ears a little more.

I would find that interesting, as long as I knew about it ahead of time. I definitely wouldn't want to find out on the fly. That being said, if I was to guess at the best possible option, I'd lean toward MCM optional, so users can determine for themselves. Absent that, and I hadn't thought of it until I read it, TheMastersSon's idea of two separate versions. Still, as Skyrim becomes less challenging, something new is definitely refreshing.

[cdcooley]

Doing something so very different than the game itself is going to make a few people very happy and many more very unhappy. Those who don't want stealth meters, maps, etc. already turn those off via other mods. Building your mod to force everyone into your play-style is probably not the best strategic choice if your goal is to make a mod to please a large number of people. If you're going to do something that radical you definitely need to make it very clear in the mod description or you're going to have a great deal of hate directed at you.

 

But like lofgren I wouldn't play it if the entire mod is like that but in limited situations it could be interesting. I have my game modded to only show the compass and sneak meter when I use a special power as a way to balance the game to my taste. Your approach effectively disables that power and substitutes your concept of balance for mine.

 

And some people have a rather poor sense of direction in both real life and the game. Maps are sometimes important for them. In the most extreme cases even the map isn't enough. Emma and I gave Vilja in Oblivion the ability to lead the player to various destinations because the late Sir Terry Pratchett asked for help because with his Alzheimer's progression he was finding it very difficult to play the game without help.

 

But ultimately it's your mod and your vision that counts. In the end you can't make the mod accessible and enjoyable for everyone. Make the mod enjoyable for you.

[csbx]

@cdcooley - I appreciate the input. My vision is what counts, but I'm doing this in part to contribute to the community so I definitely care what others think.

 

The Sir Terry Pratchett e.g. is interesting and I think a good example of a legitimate reason to include the map. As you say, there are some who just need a map. But this begs the question: are there some mods that just aren't for all people ? If one were building a labyrinth mod e.g. (I'm not doing this) and disorientation was part of the point of the mod, it seems to me that someone who gets disoriented and who can't navigate just isn't going to enjoy this mod even with a map, so altering the creative vision to suit that point of view might not have much of a point. Of course, your last paragraph sums this point up.

 

Another thing that interests me about this question is the idea of leading users instead of following them. If I think that Skyrim made some mistakes in building their game and in very small ways I want to rectify this with my own puny bit of content, perhaps it would be interesting to make that 'sell' to the community, particularly if I want for more such mods to be created by others.

 

I think in the end I'll likely make a hardcore and normal version of the mod. It gives me one more thing to struggle with !

[lofgren]

If those features were part of a specific challenge, with some kind of in-game justification, then it would be fine. But I don't like it when the game mechanics are dramatically changed on me for no reason. Also part of the reason I like modding is so that I can customize the game the game the way that I like it, and I wouldn't appreciate some random dungeons overriding my preferences that I have spent so many hours implementing on my own terms. Finally I disagree with your interpretation of what these game mechanics represent, and your tone suggests that you don't have much respect for my interpretation so it doesn't make me optimistic that your mod will be something that would appeal to me and people like me.

[csbx]

What do you disagree about regarding what these game mechanics represent ? Where do I present a disrespectful tone ? The entire purpose of this thread is asking for opinion because I'm interested in what others think. My opinion about the game mechanics may be different than yours, but I don't see why it is disrespectful to articulate this difference.

 

My last post indicates I'm interested in making two versions: one that presents my vision of the game and one that stays truer to the vanilla vision.

 

 

If those features were part of a specific challenge, with some kind of in-game justification, then it would be fine. But I don't like it when the game mechanics are dramatically changed on me for no reason. Also part of the reason I like modding is so that I can customize the game the game the way that I like it, and I wouldn't appreciate some random dungeons overriding my preferences that I have spent so many hours implementing on my own terms. Finally I disagree with your interpretation of what these game mechanics represent, and your tone suggests that you don't have much respect for my interpretation so it doesn't make me optimistic that your mod will be something that would appeal to me and people like me.