LE Mod making etiquette / philosophy

[lofgren]

Calling a visual representation of the PC's risk of being seen "player omniscience" sounds dismissive because you are dramatically overstating the effect of the mechanic. It doesn't make anybody anything close to "omniscient." It just represents your risk in a visual fashion to compensate for the many, many contextual clues that a person who is actually hiding in a room might be able to get but cannot or are not represented by the game. If I am trying to creep through a room in real life I would have a much better sense of how risky my position is, how much sound I am producing, and how well somebody nearby might be able to see or hear me.

 

For a comparable example, consider another series of which I am a fan: The Arkham series of Batman games. In those games, enemies who attack you have a bright halo with different colors indicating what type of attack they are using. You block blue halos one way, yellow halos another way, and red halos can't be blocked so you have to dodge. Obviously in real life, people do not have brightly colored halos tipping you off to how you should block. But also in real life, I am not one of the greatest martial artists in the world with a decade of experience and training under my belt. You could call those halos "omniscience" but it seems to me they are merely providing you with valuable and useful information that you as a player do not have access to otherwise.

 

In Skyrim, an enemy who hears you might come charging in your direction to investigate. In real life, you would probably have some kind of contextual clue as to whether or not that enemy has actually detected you or if they are simply coming in your direction to check out a strange noise. An enemy merely checking out a noise might be more cautious, might keep scanning the area left and right, might squint into the darkness. But in the game, their behavior is exactly the same either way. The stealth meter provides the missing input, plus a little extra to represent the instincts that a guy who has been sneaking through dungeons for 77 levels might have honed but which I, a guy who sits at a desk for a living and never sneaked through even one dungeon in my entire life (and hopefully never will), do not have.

 

Similarly, if I were called upon, in real life, to navigate a complex cave system, filled with monsters, in the dark, one of the first things I would do would be to make a map. I could sit here with a notebook, pausing the game every few seconds to jot down another tunnel, but that's way more distracting than simply letting the game do the job for me. (Although ironically the Underdark, where such a map would be most handy, has no game map.) Besideswhich Skyrim is built by taking identical objects and placing them in only semi-novel arrangements. In real life I would be able to say, "OK, I took a left at the broken sarcophagus." I might even carry a piece of chalk to mark my progress on the stone walls so I don't get lost. In Skyrim I think "OK, I took a left at the broken sarcophagus. Or was it that identical sarcophagus over there? Or am I thinking of the broken sarcophagus I took a left at three dungeons ago?" I also have to contend with the fact that in-game I may have taken that left five minutes ago, but in real life it was three days ago and since then I have had food poisoning, my kid got in a fight at school, my boss just told me my pet project is cancelled, and I chose to use my limited gaming time to play Arkham City last night instead of Skyrim. I have too much other stuff on my mind to keep track of where I last took a left in a video game, and no desire to fill notebooks with scribbles like, "9/7 – left at the broken sarcophagus in Skyrim."

 

Calling your preferred style of play "hardcore" similarly feels pretty dismissive. It's not especially hardcore to me. Just irritating. This is all a subjective assessment and you are perfectly within your rights to prefer a different style of gaming. That's what's so great about modding! I also think it is perfectly fine if you make a mod that caters to your tastes but not mine. It's your mod! Make it work how YOU want it. But you asked for opinions and this is mine.

 

The Arkham games also delight in taking fundamental elements of gameplay and tweaking them, but there is almost always an in-game justification. Certain attacks don't work against this boss because he is on drugs, or because he has high tech armor, or you have to do this mission as a sidescroller instead of freeroam because you are on a train and jumping off will trigger a bomb. Skyrim could probably have used a little bit more of this. Sleeping draugr probably shouldn't affect the stealth meter because their death-like torpor would not give the kind of clues that a living person would. Yet in the game you instantly know if there is a sleeping draugr nearby even before he has awoken because the stealth meter gives it away.

Edited September 12, 2016 by lofgren

[PeterMartyr]

"doesn't effect stealth meter" is kinda pointless again the player, No Argo Radius, no idea with Followers.

edit

On second thought "On Player Combat Begin" followers will draw weapons & charge.

Edited September 12, 2016 by PeterMartyr

[csbx]

@lofgren: I actually think we're not disagreeing too too much. I nodded my head through your description about how various mechanics work and why a certain level of 'gameyness' is required as a way to bridge the gap between the character in game (and what he'd know) and the guy at a desk as you put it.

 

You said "In real life, you would probably have some kind of contextual clue as to whether or not that enemy has actually detected you". That is correct. You probably would a lot of the time. But sometimes you wouldn't. The fact that sometimes you wouldn't and yet there aren't any significant instances of that mechanic occurring in vanilla Skyrim is a serious disappointment to me and something that I think needs to be addressed in small ways.

 

Take the DG gargoyles as an example of a tweaked 'detect' mechanic (AFAIK they don't affect stealth meter until they awaken). It seems to me that the fact that there is a visual cue (after the first one you know what to look for) is what makes this fair--and something that you would be okay with. But what about auditory cues ? I argue that this is something that is under-utilized. Edit: I should be more clear. I'm saying that auditory cues are almost always available to the player as a means of detecting the presence of a creature. If there are occasions on which the player fails to take note of those auditory cues [a more active gaming experience than Bethesda sending a tweet to the screen telling you that a creature is there], and this results in a surprise ambush--this is a worthwhile result, I think--particularly within a world in which there are few such dangers.

 

My use of 'hardcore' is really just an acknowledgement of the language game that obtains--ie., if I have to distinguish between 2 versions, most will understand on that descriptive basis. It's shorthand and not intended as an insult.

Edited September 12, 2016 by csbx

[csbx]

I don't think it's pointless--it means if I'm sneaking in a black room and a black cat poised in the corner wearing a black burqa notices me, and I don't notice him, it hardly makes sense that despite not noticing him I know [because my stealth eye changes shape] that he sees me. I'm referring to the setting on the actor page for creatures. In short, the way things are set up, no [enemy] creature in skyrim can EVER sneak up on you. That's ridiculous, I would argue.

 

As a general rule it [stealth meters revealing presence of creatures] may make sense in most cases for the very good reasons illustrated by Lofgren.

 

"doesn't effect stealth meter" is kinda pointless again the player, No Argo Radius, no idea with Followers.

edit

On second thought "On Player Combat Begin" followers will draw weapons & charge.

Edited September 12, 2016 by csbx

[PeterMartyr]

I am not a NPC I am Self Aware how exactly will they sneak up on me.

In regards to Gargoyles I think "which one will come to life"

In regards to Gargoyles until the player get attacked, PlayerREF OnCombatStateChanged, aeCombatState == 1 Then Game Engine makes Followers Attack does, "doesn't effect stealth meter" still count I don't know.

 

so It works for NPC but not the Self Aware Gamer. If you blindly don't see the Back Cat how is this Stealth?

[lofgren]

When I first got Skyrim I spent the first year playing in a room with a sleeping baby less than ten feet away. Even now I often play with the sound off so I can listen to music or podcasts. Audio cues need to be highly specific and not easily missed, like a guy saying "I'm going to check out over there." Again, Arkham series, which has extensive stealth missions and no stealth meter, uses exactly that mechanic. (Can you tell I really like the Arkham series?) And since I always have dialogue off, I can see the subtitles. So if your game relies on subtle audio cues for me to be able to play it then it's probably not something I am interested in.

 

Edit: Which, just to reiterate, is completely fine. "Playing next to a sleeping baby" is probably a pretty unusual circumstance that I wouldn't expect modmakers or game designers to accommodate.

Edited September 12, 2016 by lofgren

[cdcooley]

Some players play with headphones and no music so they don't miss anything. Others play with ordinary speakers and game music on or in a room filled with other sounds. Assuming just auditory clues will be enough simply makes the game significantly harder for that second group who rely on the visual clues like the stealth meter. And then there are deaf players who rely entirely on those visual effects.

 

The game mechanics are used the way they are specifically to make the game as accessible to as many players as possible. Turning off quest markers, disabling various HUD elements, rescaling enemy levels/stats/skills, altering perks, etc. are things players should be doing in their own games to maximize their enjoyment if they want more (or even less) challenge. And if players are already doing those things, having a mod which deviates too far from the game's defaults may make it unplayable for those people.

 

None of that means you shouldn't do what you want and if your goal is to introduce players to a different style of play then that's fine but know that your style may be completely incompatible with either their style or their abilities. As long as you describe the sorts of major changes you've made it shouldn't be a problem. There are plenty of game overhauls that make the game extremely difficult and they are rather popular. :)

[agerweb]

I wouldn't have a problem with you adding any level of difficulty to your dungeons you choose as long as you advertise it and people can decide whether they want to download it or not. I have considered the no map option for one of my dungeons because it fits the concept in that particular instance.

 

The only caveat is that whatever you do should not impact on the game mechanics in rest of Skyrim and other peoples mods.

[FrankFamily]

Imo everyone should make their mods how they like it so if thats how you like it go ahead.

 

Best practice could be doing stuff the way it is in the vanilla game or in other words, mod for the vanilla game not your modded setup. This way its more consistent and people that dont want stealth marker will already have it globally removed. But as said, rules are made to be broken and best practices even more, do it the way you like it.

 

Regarding sound, i often play with outside music unless i really want to immerse myself, i think a game should rely more on visual information than audio.

[Elias555]

Sounds cool, I'd play it. Don't care for the logic though. Make sure it's clear on the mod page of course.

I play Skyrim without music and earphones most of the time. When I first played Oblivion the music wasn't installed properly and the game felt a lot more immersive. I didn't even hear the first animal that attacked me..cursor spazzed out and I nearly s#*! myself.