RPG question regarding skill/speech checks

[csbx]

I'm interested in adding speech and other skill checks in the dialogue of the mods I'm working on but note that I have at least a few decisions to make about how to implement this. One option is to:

 

1) dialogue opens up / events occur based on a condition check of a given player's Actor Value. E.g. if your speechcraft is >70, a new dialogue option pops up that alters the flow of a conversation, forces a better deal, convinces etc. So in this case, if the player has this level, the dialogue pops up and alerts you in brackets [speechcraft] that you meet this condition and have opened this option up and can successfully invoke it without any element of chance.

 

The other option is:

 

2) the dialogue option always appears, warns you that it's a e.g. speech check / intimidation / sneak check, and then depending on your skill level in that area, you have a percent chance of successfully passing that check, opening up additional dialogue / events. IIRC, this is what Fallout New Vegas did and I quite liked it. That said, some may argue that this just results in re-load cheating (that oftentimes will be fruitless).

 

What do you think offers a better role-playing experience ? Does a degree of chance make things more interesting ? Should you pass simply on raw condition check ?

Edited September 25, 2016 by csbx

[iXenite]

I really loved how New Vegas did their speech checks. However, Fallout has the Special system, and at least New Vegas, it also had the TAG skills. This let you have certain skills be higher than others at the start of the game. Skyrim doesn't have anything like that, so how would that work for a character that starts out not that good at anything? Because in New Vegas you could start the game for instance with a pretty good Speech, Repair and Explosive skills for instance which would help in the opening quest lines for the Goodsprings area. Speech seems like such an unnecessary skill in Vanilla Skyrim that it seems hard to imagine how an overhaul would work without implementing something like the TAG skills to help flesh out a character in the early parts of the game.

[csbx]

@DaddyDirection - Good points. A couple of things come to mind in response. First, speech is unnecessary in Skyrim because in part, Skyrim failed to incentivize its use. I guess I want to contribute to incentivizing it and finally rewarding those players who do invest in it. Second, I am envisioning using these checks in non-critical contexts--ie., if it's only a bonus or extra bit of dialogue or a shortcut or something, I'm okay with many users missing out on that additional content. I wish vanilla skyrim was more ruthless about blocking off its content in this way so that additional playthroughs yielded more novelty. Finally, I think I can calibrate the check so that it's not particularly onerous. For example, if I made a given speech check require, say, >30, those who spent zero time improving speechcraft will fail this, while those who pay even moderate attention to improving that skill will pass it.

[iXenite]

Okay, I think I get what you mean. I too wish Skyrim was more willing to block the player from perusing certain paths based on their build or choices as well. While its open skills system is not that bad, I actually quite like it, it could use something like the TAG skills system to compliment it. Plus, a perk and skill based dialogue system.

 

I like your idea of trying to expand on the dialogue system, it is something certainly worth expanding on as it really wasn't utilized in the Vanilla game. Do you have any in-game examples of how your speech overhaul may affect gameplay/questing?

[lofgren]

I would advise just doing what vanilla Skyrim does (i.e. dialogue option always appears). If people want to reload that's their business.

 

Also I would advise using the speech check globals that already exist, since those may be modified through perks (both vanilla or overhaul).

 

Speech in vanilla Skyrim is primarily about getting better prices anyway. Persuasion and intimidation are distant secondary concerns.

Edited September 25, 2016 by lofgren

[Elias555]

No.1. I really liked how it was in VTM:B. Different playthroughs felt different in more than just combat. I don't know how well this would translate to Skyrim since there's only going to be a skill to pick from where as VTM:B had 5 including disciplines. I guess you could use other skills as checks, like sneak would allow barter, heavy armour would open intimidation, light armour for persuasion. Not sure that make sense but it opens up options for different builds.

[csbx]

@DaddyDirection: I'm really only talking about implementing occasional skill checks for dialogue in the mods that I am and will be working on. I'm trying to settle on a basic approach. An example would be: you know an npc has a certain item that you want (may be custom item my mod adds). I would add (just an example), three dialogue options:

a) Give me the [item], I know you have it (npc has no reason to give it, so says no)

b) Give me the [item] or I'll bash your skull in [intimidate] (possibly using built in intimidation system OR just level check for e.g. >= 1.5 x NPCs level.

c) Here's why you should give me the item (with explanation) [speechcraft] (perhaps as Lofgren suggests, using GVs of 25 for easy, 10 for very easy etc.)

 

So if you your level is 2x the NPCs and your speech is only 8 [with very easy threshold], only options (a) and (b) would show up under one possible way of implementing this.

 

@Lofgren: using the above example, are you suggesting showing the third option even though you don't meet the requirements ? If so, how would that play out ? Perhaps I forget Skyrim's system already. I don't even recall very many skill checks aside from thief intimidation.

 

I also wanted to make clear that my goal is always expanding player choice. So in the example above, you could just exit the convo and obliterate my custom npc and steal the item from their corpse. That possibility will always be available.

 

@Elias555: as mentioned above, my interest isn't in a broad overhaul (though I'd happily install that if someone else made it !), but rather opening up the variety of play-styles available to the player in anything I make. Could you give me an example of a speech / skill check in VTM.B ?

Edited September 26, 2016 by csbx

[lofgren]

Skyrim has several persuasion checks and a perk related to checks that reduces the difficulty of persuasion by 30%.

 

The way it works is that the checks show up in dialogue with (Persuade) at the end of the line. If you select it and fail the check, the NPC simply rejects your persuasion attempt and you don't get whatever you were trying to get.

 

There is no penalty for failure. Instead, you get some kind of bonus for success (e.g. extra reward, skip some part of the quest, or you don't have to resort to bribes).

 

Persuasion in vanilla Skyrim is a flat skill comparison with no randomness. If you have higher than the required level in speechcraft, you pass. If you have lower than the value you fail.

[csbx]

@lofgren: Now I understand. Thanks. Do you recall off-hand if there are examples of speech / skill checks in game that persist ? Ie. with the thief one, you pass or fail, then it's over. But are there dialogue options that are skill checks that you have a second and third bite at--ie. returning to the npc after you've gained skills ? I guess in a sense the thief encounter provides this experience for the player-that is, once you meet the threshold you feel like you've developed.

[lofgren]

In most cases I believe the option disappears after it has been activated while you are within the same conversation. I have never tried leaving the conversation and restarting it or coming back later.