A better path towards maturity.

[Marcus Wolfe]

Wow, you need to work on punctuation/grammar.

 

Anyways, the Samurai masters of old could enter a state where they literally killed without thinking. Countless drills and hours training let them leave all the physical movements to the instincts, removing the hesitation of human thinking. Or so they say. I know a guy, the sensei at the dojo I go to, who has actually entered this state. It was only one movement (roundhouse to the head), but he still amazed himself.

 

Now, somebody who could such terrible things without as much as a thought might be classified as psychologically unstable, but that is not the description of a samurai. Indeed, because samurai were often poets and artists, they managed to find some positive stress management methods that let them balance out their destructive capabilities.

[Chesto]

I hope I've digested all that has appeared in this thread so far. If I'm being redundant, apologies in advance. It's a good debate to be having.

 

Tribal societies were- and still are, where they are still in existence- essentially pagan. Pagans could be said to be more in touch with the elemental aspects of their existence and how they react to them. That is arguable.

 

Nearly all of us have ceased to belong to 'tribes', in the anthropological sense. We belong to 'communities' in which the smallest unit, the family, probably contains most, if not all, of the rituals of passage that most of us will experience. And these modern rites have little or nothing to do with coming of age in a natural environment. They are rites of sociobility which, supposedly, help us to fit in with the people we're most likely to come in contact with.

 

All families are the same, and all families are different - to paraphrase badly. So that there can, no longer, be Rites of Passage, in the universal sense that I think you are implying. Unless, of course, we revert to tribalism. And are forced to accept the socio-fascist pressures that Tribes impose on their members. ( I'll probably get in trouble for the 'fascist' part of that) Conform or be banished: the worst thing that could happen to a member of a tribe.

 

Of course, if we keep messing up the earth in the ways that we are, we may be reverting to Tribalism sooner than some would have thought possible. Or desirable. And I wouldn't like to dwell too much on what form the Rites of Passage would take in THAT world. Unless I could be one of the Elders.

[Sativarg]

OK Chesto thanks for your input,...what I really meant to say...

Well, I think I said it. But to clarify; I believe that modern society has discounted a powerful force that is part of a humans physical and psychological core. I am saying when some people miss the opportunity to come to terms with this natural force and fail to integrate that nature with the norms and morays of an industrial society, problems can, like stains, get ground in and set, so to speak. But if, as part of their beliefs systems, as a public ceremony or family tradition they can take advantage of the stages of life most conducive to integration, much can be done to prevent lasting problems with transition.<_{another run on sentence, sorry} :unsure:

 

I have no problem With "pagans" and no little respect.

  "wikipedia" said:

Pagan

 

The term pagan is from Latin paganus, an adjective originally meaning "rural", "rustic" or "of the country." As a noun, paganus was used to mean "country dweller, villager." In colloquial use, it could mean much the same as calling someone today a 'Hillbilly'.

I could only hope to find a bit of "rural" space in this world to inhabit in peace. The negative connotation attributed to being pagan makes me cringe. The world is full of examples of how industrialized "civilized" cultures have relearned and embraced truths kept alive by the rural, rustic societies. All to often these same civilized peoples destroy the sovereignty or free pagans for there own gain.

 

By the above derivation one could call the Amish pagans, and their observance of Rumspringa is just the kind of timely practice I am interested in. It is perhaps not perfect but it is a way of testing self and respecting and releasing the powerful forces of animal nature so they can express and integrate with the person more freely.

 

  "wikipedia" said:

Rumspringa generally refers to a period of adolescence for members of the Amish religious denomination - a subsect of the Anabaptist Christian movement - that begins around the age of sixteen and ends when a youth chooses baptism within the Amish church or instead leaves the community.[1] The vast majority choose baptism and remain in the church.[2] Not all Amish use this term[citation needed], but in sects that do Amish elders generally view this time for courtship and finding a spouse.[3]

 

I also cringe when I think of a world wholly dependent on science and industry for its support system; the very world I believe you eluded to above:

  Quote

if we keep messing up the earth in the ways that we are

Perhaps some of those Pagan ways are the key to preserving the beautiful aspects "of the country."

 

  Marcus Wolfe said:

Wow, you need to work on punctuation/grammar.

Yea sorry about that :unsure:

 

I am sure the Samurai take full advantage of the times in life best suited for embracing change. They serve as a fine example of how humans can build an effective discipline with powerful results. Much care and attention must have been taken to observe and integrate the whole being.

[Chesto]

Just goes to show how one can have bad habits for years and not know it. I've used ' PAGAN' when I should have used ' ANIMISITIC '. So, for ' pagan ' , please substitute 'animistic', which ties in with the topic better. ...I think. I suppose one could say that pagans are animistic.

 

Did not intend to be derogatory to pagans. At least... not any more derogatory than a secularist tends to be towards all mystical belief systems. But that is another topic for another time....

[Marcus Wolfe]

Funny, I was always taught pagan was a word to describe barbarians or people who worshiped multiple gods. Anyhow........

 

Rumspringa, eh? Where one is punished less harshly for misbehavior? Sounds like a believable policy. The world needs to come to terms with the fact that we teens have such poor decision making skills.

[cyronarxes]

  Sativarg said:

IMHO

I believe that by embracing our beast we can become integrated and

that when we try to deny the beast we become unclean, un-integrated and

dangerous. I also believe that the right of passage should be a time

when a human being learns to recognize accept and integrate with there

animal nature. And that when this integration is coupled with wisdom

and understanding and guidelines; when the passage means that things

really change with true consequences the child can integrate and become

whole and adult.

Are you a transcendentalist :huh:?

[Jumonji]

I don't think traditional rites of passage had much to do with confronting ones animal nature. I think they had more to do with forcing a youth to confront some significant obsticle and then, through conquering it, come to terms with the understanding that they have the power of an adult to shape their own lives.

 

The best obsticles involved a long period of deprivation and contemplation, so the youth had time to dwell on the transition and who they wanted to be as an adult. Not that they actually think: "I wanna be like Daniel Radcliffe," but more like, "I'm not a wuss, I'm going to do it my way..." Even if "My Way" is whatever Harry would do.

 

Where the "animal nature" part comes into these transitional challenges is that it is an emotional experience, not a rational one. We always think that if we are acting emotionally, then we are acting like animals. And if we are doing the logical thing, then that is somehow more human? Whatever. It's not like peopleare actually rational or anything. :)

[Chesto]

Amen to most of that, Jumonji. Though I'm somewhat unclear what your last sentence means. What ever 'spiritually' enhancing method was used, the real, quantifyable outcome would be more or less as you describe.

 

Because Rites of Initiation, Maturity, etc., took place in Tribal societies which, as I mentioned, were animistic, it was natural for 'animalism' ( is there a word?) to play a great part in the symbolism of such rituals.

To speak of getting in touch with one's animal nature could be just a desire to tap into our collective racial memory, when, to be a member of a tribe, one was always surrounded by and motivated by animal gods, and other 'nature' gods. All existing societies have travelled the tribal route at sometime in their history, either recent or ancient. It's part of our gene pool.

[xenxander]

There are rights of passage involved in the “modern” and “industrialized” world, yet we scarcely think of them in such easy terms. Once we are out “in the real world”, we are forced to mature, adapt, or die. Many can’t ‘die’ in the literal sense, as the ‘helpless’ get all sorts of government and local aid, which to me removes such rite of passage from the picture and such individuals never truly grow up. Those who revert to needing ‘aid’ have failed to adapt, though they can relearn that trait if given the proper motivation. The issue with that is too many are lazy and softened by the modern world in such a way that they cannot understand the principles of ‘adaptation’, and instead have learned and imbued the ideas of ‘conformality’ (I will meld into society and let it carry me, instead of conquering my own life).

 

Humans as a species age too quickly and have too short of a life span, yet from the above mentioned, we have increased the age in which we are “mature” in a mental way though our bodies still mature at their natural age. Because of this, we do not establish ourselves until our late thirties (or whichever age is most suiting) and then decide it’s time to breed and multiply (the basic compulsion of every living thing in existence – you exist in order to breed).

 

Then there are those who’ve adapted instead of conformed and do not decide to breed, for they realize that it would be a burden to them or in some other way not necessary (and statistics prove at certain intelligent categories, people tend to breed a lot less than those below then). Have these people attained a proper ‘rite of passage’? I feel in some ways yes, for one doesn’t need to have offspring in order to announce they have accomplished something.

 

So to me, this is the true right of passage – when one realizes they are the master of themselves and can choose their own path. When one finally accepts the responsibility of living their own life and controlling it in whatever way they decide.

[Chesto]

I agree with some of what you say, but.... Hmmm. Social Darwinism as a basis for 'true Rites of Passage' ? It could be said that people who learn to 'play the system' also experience Rites of Passage, even though the tax payer may not like the way they survive within their demi-mond.