I will give Ulfric credit

[LobselVith66]

Yep, i'm done. You are clearly as blind as a Falmer, and have the argumentitive skills of a Nord. Continueing this arguement will only resort to a waste of space, as no evidence given against ulfric will pass your muster, while you sling all manner of rhetoric and filth in support of a psychotic tyrant.

 

You'll have to excuse me for having a different opinion than you do, and having the audacity to express it. I've never addressed the Stormcloak or the Legion route as good or only option, and I think it's a credit to the writers that both factions have their strengths and weaknesses, their good and bad to them, but I get very tired in seeing people try to make it out as a white hat, black hat scenerio when it's clearly anything but. There are valid reasons to side with the Legion, there are valid reasons to side with the Stormcloaks, and I think it's inaccurate to make either side out to be little more than bad guys when the situation is more complicated than that.

[Linsolv]

 

A duel is declared, and then someone (often the seconds of the duelists, but not always) determines the rules of the duel. Anything not covered by the rules is allowed. For this reason, the rules are usually very specific about what is allowed and do not allow anything outside those specific things.

 

This is actually historically innacurate. Few cultures which allow duels do not have very strict, codified rules pertaining to the duel its self. You only really see 'choice' involved in duels which arrose in Europe with the advent of gunpowder, and this is born out of the fact that, in the beginning, not every lord had a pistol. As such, it was required to increase the mutability of dueling to encompass the chance that both combatants did not posess the same kind of weaponry. Of course, then there's also the French, but they are hardly a representation of formal dueling. Or functional Warfare... useful government... economic responsibility... Why is France still a country again?

 

The closest representation of a formal duel we have in Skyrim is brawling (Which, admitedly, can hardly be considered a concrete representation, as peasents tend to be more lax with rules). When brawling, i for one receive cries of outrage if i shout.

 

Actually, referring to Holmgang, a traditional form of Nordic duel, but I was trying to be more general in my definition, so nobody said "This isn't real life, Lin, gosh!"

 

EDIT for fun:

 

Approximate Rules:

1) Two combatants enter a 9 foot square area called a Holm. The Holm is to be clearly marked with rope or other markings so that the combatants clearly understand the borders of the Holm.

2) The two may choose a second to join them for the duel in specific circumstances (see below).

3) The duel is without the use of any class or class abilities. It is strictly to be a normal tournament duel.

4) There shall be NO reeve or otherwise judge to witness the event. The fight is purely on the honor of the fighters.

5) Should one of the combatants exit for whatever reason the boundaries of the Holm, they have lost and the remaining fighter is declared the winner.

 

You'll notice that there's no mention of what is allowed as far as weapons are concerned; this is because that would've been agreed upon before the duel.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Linsolv

[marharth]

I am sure a empire run by humans will not bother fighting a group of Nazi elves.

 

Seriously, they want to wipe out humanity and believe that elves are superior in every way. How could you possibly believe that the empire would not want to fight them?

Edited December 24, 2011 by marharth

[LobselVith66]

I am sure a empire run by humans will not bother fighting a group of Hitler elves.

 

Seriously, they want to wipe out humanity and believe that elves are superior in every way. How could you possibly believe that the empire would not want to fight them?

 

Given that the Empire handed over part of Hammerfell and sold out Ulfric after he recaptured the Reach for the Legion specifically to avoid fighting the Thalmor in another war, it's valid to question whether the Empire has any intention of dealing with the Thalmor proactively, or if they will only react if the Thalmor attack them again. Will they build up thekr strength and attack, or will they settle for the status quo unless they are specifically threatened? What I think is interesting is that nothing is certain, and it's really a matter of following what you think is the best course of action. Nothing here is black and white, nothing is clear cut, it's ambiguous enough that the protagonist can only do what he (or she) thinks is right.

 

I much prefer this type of storytelling to Dragon Age 2, for instance, where templars and mages both seemed to be fighting over who was the bigger moron in Kirkwall. With Skyrim, you have a foe attacking the very spirit of Nirn, a ressurected World-Eater intending to unmake civilization, and a difficult choice between two imperfect factions led by two flawed men.

[Linsolv]

I am sure a empire run by humans will not bother fighting a group of Nazi elves.

 

Seriously, they want to wipe out humanity and believe that elves are superior in every way. How could you possibly believe that the empire would not want to fight them?

 

If there's a man in the room with a gun, some people will want to try to minimize the number of people who get shot by doing what he says, and some people are going to try to minimize the number of people who get shot by taking the gun. Philosophical difference.

[Schattenu]

Except it's not a matter of not getting killed by doing what the Thalmor say. As soon as they're ready to strike again, they'll kill everyone. That's their objective.

[Linsolv]

Except it's not a matter of not getting killed by doing what the Thalmor say. As soon as they're ready to strike again, they'll kill everyone. That's their objective.

That's never stopped people from appeasing just to live a little longer and maybe survive before.

 

You're right, of course. But people are foolish. Often, even though they know that death is inevitable, they will work to make certain that they are allowed to live as long as possible, rather than try to seize life with their own hands. I imagine that the empire rationalizes this as a necessity, because there's no way they could win now, but perhaps given time...

 

In this case, I would completely disagree with them. I don't find Ulfric to be all that bad. His city is more of a military base than a city, and the amount of nationalism that tends to follow in the footsteps of his cause would inevitably lead to the city being the way it is. It's sad because I really liked the Legion in Morrowind, they were my favorite faction. But in Skyrim, I hate the Thalmor and the Legion is working for an empire that appeases them and gets nothing done.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Linsolv

[HEXiT]

OP, i think you will find ulfric and the storm cloaks were modeled on the nazi party, hitler and his black shirts.

i two started the game again 1s ulfrics true intentions were know. i even brokered a peace in his favour, but i started hearing skyrim to the true nords and go back to where you came from,. leave a sour taste in my mouth... then when i restarted i decided to help the empire and found them to be just as despicable but for other reasons... classic empire or tyrant...

over all i have about 100 hours already in the game and im just about done with everything listed in general quests..

but im glad to say the reunification of skyrim whichever side you choose does make the game feel slightly different.

 

1 things for sure there are some satisfying twists for the empire haters out there... you will not just be a king killer... an entire empire will be at your feet...

 

still ulfric as a game character is a very disturbing individual. but the way bethista have actually got me to care about what i do in this game deserves credit...

Edited December 25, 2011 by HEXiT

[huntsman2310]

I was actually dead-set on joining the Stormcloaks at the start of the game, mainly because Ralof was a pretty cool guy.

 

But that all changed when I entered Whiterun. It was probably the moment just after first speaking to him that I realised that his way was the wrong way to go. As said by a few people, his goals are just and fairly good ones, its just the methods and mindset he has in obtaining them.

 

He advocates cultural diversity while quelling the culture of other races in the process.

 

He treats other races at best as a minor nuisance and a tool.

And I actually have a problem with his goal of defeating the Thalmor.

 

How can he do that with just one province and the nation buffer that is the Empire in the way?

 

He didn't think it out very well.

[LobselVith66]

OP, i think you will find ulfric and the storm cloaks were modeled on the nazi party, hitler and his black shirts.

i two started the game again 1s ulfrics true intentions were know. i even brokered a peace in his favour, but i started hearing skyrim to the true nords and go back to where you came from,. leave a sour taste in my mouth... then when i restarted i decided to help the empire and found them to be just as despicable but for other reasons... classic empire or tyrant...

over all i have about 100 hours already in the game and im just about done with everything listed in general quests..

but im glad to say the reunification of skyrim whichever side you choose does make the game feel slightly different.

 

1 things for sure there are some satisfying twists for the empire haters out there... you will not just be a king killer... an entire empire will be at your feet...

 

still ulfric as a game character is a very disturbing individual. but the way bethista have actually got me to care about what i do in this game deserves credit...

 

I doubt that the Stormcloaks were modeled on WWII Germany. Rolaf makes it clear that anyone can become a member of the Stormcloaks, the argument at Windhelm with the two belligerent Nords is over the lack of Dunmers joining the Stormcloaks, and Ulfric has absolutely no problem with a non-Nord becoming a member of the Stormcloaks. Is there racism in the Stormcloaks? Yes, just like there is racism in the Legion, in the Holds, in the different provinces, and throughout all of Nirn. There are people who are racist - plain and simple. If you're familiar with the Elder Scrolls universe, you would realize this as a facet of Tamriel.

 

I don't see the point in vilifying either side. Neither the Legion nor the Stormcloaks are perfect, they are both very imperfect factions lead by flawed but well-meaning men. Ulfric doesn't see the Legion doing anything about the Thalmor but submitting to their whims and placating them, with civilians getting kidnapped, tortured, and murdered at the hands of Thalmor Justiciars with full Legion sanction. You could argue that the Empire is simply bidding its time, but that's one possible explanation, while the other is that the Empire is going to let the status quo remain unless the Thalmor make a move against them. Will that be in a few months, years, or centuries? Ulfric is taking a course of action that he thinks is necessary, while Tullis is taking an opposing route because Tullis believes in the Legion while Ulfric believes that Skyrim must emancipate itself from a failing Empire.

 

Clearly, no one is going to agree on a consensus over whether the Legion or the Stormcloaks is the right course of action, but I see no reason to put the black hat on Ulfric or the Stormcloaks simply because you favor the Legion. Neither side is perfect, but neither side is a villain, either. They both have their own positives and negatives that come from supporting them, and one of the significant positives for the Stormcloaks is their willingness to kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim and oppose their tyranny. The Thalmor want to eradicate reality as the people of Nirn known it, and they are a serious threat.