I will give Ulfric credit

[Handofbane]

From an Imperial point of view, you could be anyone - the random hobo and horse thief, or even spies working for Ulfric who meant to meet him in disguise that had the misfortune of being caught by the ambush. It's not like they expect you to say "Yes I am a spy" should you be asked, after all.

[Matth85]

It's not like they expect you to say "Yes I am a spy" should you be asked, after all.

The world would be simple if people did that though!

[justwannaddl]

It still doesn't excuse the summary execution that followed. It is one thing to shoot Osama while he is trying to escape but it is another to kill him and everyone around him after they all surrendered, stripped off all their weapons and have been handcuffed. Even if there is no trial, they are bound to have plenty of information about the remaining forces worth listening to. Everything the empire did after the ambush was just sloppy.

[Lachdonin]

You are looking at things out of context. Admitedly, that may be partially my fault with the example, but i tried to give a more culturally recognisable example. If i mentioned Pompei it wouldn't stir the same type of emotional responce. Or Attilla. Those examples would be more contextually relavent, but the context is lessened by way of relatability.

 

The point is, you were caught, admitedly by coincedence, with known rebels and criminals. Your statements in the matter are irrelivent, and the drive is to put an end to the rebellion (and Ulfric) as quickly as possible. Tullius' tone indicates he's not particularly happy with the sequence of events, but without a direct statement from him thats impossible to prove.

 

Within the context of the world, what they did made sense. I don't agree with it, but i see WHY that decision was made.

 

I think what speak more about the Legion is that they are willing to admit you even after that. Tullius recognises you as from Helgen, and he is still willing to give you the chance. Again, this to me indicates the executions were less his decision and more something he was ordered to do, but thats supposition.

 

Ulfric already had a degree of comraderie with you because of the Helgen incedent. As such, his acceptance of you is less profound than Tullius'.

 

None of this, of course, morally validates the executions themselves. Sometimes the pragmatic decisions are not the moral ones, and you sometimes have to commit immoral acts in order to stand on the moral high ground later. Ethics in war is a very, very murky area.

[justwannaddl]

I do agree that it is easy to see there are many reasons why summary executions would occur in the situation. They don't want to go through the hassle of a trial. They cannot risk transporting him too far because he is a flight risk. They wanted to make a show of force and intimidation. Still, it is very easy to see the value in keeping a live rebel leader and his retinue for information on remaining hostiles, at least until the conflict cools down.

 

With Tullius and his chance, I really don't see it as him giving you a chance so much as him sending you away to get yourself killed. Who sends a lone hobo to kill off a bandit camp thinking they'll really succeed? Not that the Stormcloaks are much better with their ice wraith hunting initiation. What ever happened to a simple physical? The fact that you do come back alive and victorious would make them idiots if they didn't keep an eye on you.

[LobselVith66]

Defeating an ice wraith is a traditional Nord initiation rite, which is why you are sent out to defeat an ice wraith as part of your initiation into the Stormcloaks. This is referenced by Marise Aravel.

[Zephyr2011]

After reading all of this there are a few issues that are making me want to bash my head into a wall :wallbash: so hopefully I can put those to bed :rant:

 

THE DUEL:

It's been said several times that a duel is 2 people fighting with equal gear, and skill is the determining factor. Last time I checked time and dedication still fall more closely under the 'skill' category than the 'gear' category. Both Torryg and Ulfric are Nords. It is COMPLETE LORE-BASED FACT that ANY NORD can learn to use the voice given the proper amount of time and dedication. Ulfric put in the right amount of time and dedication, Torryg did not, there is NO 'gear' difference. For example: We both have right arms, you challenge me to a brawl. You kick my arse because you pummel me with both your right AND your left fists while I'm only really good at throwing punches with my right arm. Just because I didn't put in the time and effort to master using both my hands to land that haymaker doesn't mean that you cheated. We both have the same (general) inherent traits, you maximized the use of them and I didn't. If anything that's MORE skill. Not less. Furthermore, how in the HELL could the voice, of all things be considered illegal in a Nord duel. There is a loading screen with a quote about the High King sitting in with his Jagged Crown belching whirlwinds from the voice. That's not the magic that Nords hate and despise. That's their most revered gift from the gods! By all accounts the High King did not have to be Dragonborn. Thus the High King learned to utilize the voice. It's a hallmark of Nord culture and tradition.

 

The argument has also been raised that Ulfric's use of the voice is completely unnecessary and overkill because he was FAR more experienced. While this is quite true I would like to again point out the lore that connects the High King with the use of the voice (the Jagged Crown is made out of dragon bones and teeth for Pete's sake) Ulfric disarming Torryg was not because he felt the need to 'rob' Torryg of an honorable death but rather to further legitimize his (Ulfric's) claim to the throne. By using the voice, which is connected to the Jagged Crown and High King, Ulfric connects himself to the throne and further tips his hat to tradition. Ulfric challenged Torryg to the duel because that was how it was done in the old days, by killing him Ulfric, according to the old ways, was rightful High King. Ulfric further legitimized this by using the voice, a hallmark of the seat of the High King and the old Nord ways. And because Torryg could not use this ancient Nord tradition, Ulfric deligitimized Torryg in the same breath (pun intended). Ulfric wanted to expose Torryg as a puppet (as someone who is suddenly the leader of a province and has just come of age is almost indefinately) of the Empire, by highlighting the despairities between Torryg and the old Nord ways of being profficient in combat and able to wield the voice, Ulfric symbolically furthers his cause astronomically.

 

Additionally most people aren't so outraged about the duel because Ulfric used the voice, but rather because Torryg was so young. Baalgruf bitterly talks about Torryg as a boy, he barely mentions Ulfric's use of the voice. The outrage behind all of this is because of Torryg's age, not exactly how he was killed. The claim has also been raised that it is because of how he was killed and that the duel was unfair because the people of Solitude tried to stop Ulfric from leaving. Simply stop and think about the town. Solitude. The largest Imperial holding, the most Imperial town, the city most connected with the Empire, commercially, politically and culturally do you really think that a bunch of Imperials and their sympathizers are going to understand all of the old Nord culture with duels and fighting to the death to settle leadership? None of the people of solitude that I've found (although I may not have spoken extensively with all of them) are very in tune to the old Nord ways so why would they understand that Ulfric was making a bold statement and challenging the way the Imperials run things? To them it would just seem like he ran in to the palace and killed him. Because it's not part of their culture any more. They are too imperialized to understand this and frieked out because they didn't understand the concept of a duel.

 

I hope that puts the silly 'duel' fairness issue to rest.

 

MAGES

 

This one's been let alone for awhile but I'm just throwing in my 2 cents. Why was the number of mages in Skyrim even brought up? It was my understanding that a comparison was drawn between the Hammerfell invasion (of which, I will profess, I know little of) and a possible invasion of Skyrim. Redguards and Nords alike are very well known throughout the TES series to only rarely dabble in magic so the Hammerfell defenders would also have been pretty lacking in magical discipline when facing down the Thalmor battlemages, with Imperial battlemages backing them or no. We've also seen time and again that it's a fairly level playing field between mages and more traditional combat styles. Once the mages get close the Warriors are immensely effective and even from afar they do have arrows.

 

SKYRIM'S CHANCES AGAINST THE THALMOR

 

Using the last little segment as a sprinboard. If we assume that the Dovahkiin does indeed finish the main quest and slay Alduin (as the game would have it) and let's say they kept Parthurnaax around (as anyone who had spent time around the greybeards would at least consider and realized that the Blades are pricks would heavily consider) the first assumption is really a given, and the second a likely. Now lets go on to say that the Dovahkiin then helped the Stormcloaks win the war against the imperials. He's now one of the key officers of the Stormcloaks and one of Ulfric's right hand men (or women.) so he'll probably be on hand for when/if the Thalmor show up. The Nords have just been through a beat-down, drag-out civil war, that part is pretty undeniable. So it's not exactly like the Stormcloaks are unaccustomed to fighting, I'd say they're pretty battle-hardened actually. Not to mention any local legion sympathizers who had helped out but then conceded after the legion got the boot. The so-called 'regular people' know how to fight now. They've seen war and even if they didn't participate directly, they know how to play their part. The Thalmor won't face a rag tag bunch of idiots in fur with torches and pitchforks. They clearly have at least some armor, chainmail and steel are pretty popular, and they've had plenty of experience. They've been thinned by dragons some may say, this might be true, but that handy Dovahkiin has been off slaying them by the dozens and the local guards and any soldiers who were around when th Dovahkiin killed one probably learned a thing or two about how to kill the damned things. So dragons would probably become less and less of an issue to the Nords on the whole, a very small percentage of the population will have died from the scaly bastards. Speaking of the snaggletoothed beasties. Parthurnaax has been off flying around since the defeat of Alduin chatting it up with other dragons, convincing them to stop pillaging and start helping, or at least leaving people alone, so that's even less of an issue from Dragons. Now when the troops hit the beaches you can probably count on a few things: Ulfric's battle-hardened troops will be there and the Dovahkiin is probaly gonna get a call, whch will probably be answered. Now let's consider fairly even forces clashing on the shores of Skyrim. The Thalmor clearly have a technical advantage with better arms and armor (and magic) but the Nords aren't exactly left high and dry. They know how to fight, have been waiting and have that ever strange, wondrous, and effective thing called the home-field advantage. Let's not forget that the awesme warrior who basically won the war, took 2 cities, several forts, has killed scores of dragons, including the might world-eater himself and gone on countless adventures and knows innumerable shouts that can wreak havoc on any army (storm call anyone?) is right there with them. Additionally, when the Dovahkiin had to fly to the World Eater's little ski-lodge he elicited the help of one Ohdaviing. If I'm the Dovahkiin (which, coincidentally, I am in this case), I'm sure as hell calling that favor in. So now the former stormcloaks have this insane death-machine of a man, plenty of combat experience and a dragon on their side. The odds aren't even, but they're a lot better than Joe-shmo in a kilt with a goatskin on his back and big mallet in his hands. Oh and let's not forget Parthurnaax who would probably stop in to pay his old pall the Dovahkiin a visit. Not a given, but probably pretty likely, he may have been teaching non-violence to the other dragons but I wouldn't be surprised if he broke his vow of peace again this time (remember how he fought of Alduin to buy you some time? or how he's been kicking dragon-arse to get them in line?) to help an old friend, and his homeland, out. So now that's 2 dragons, one of which is on par with Alduin and we've seen how impressive he was in combat. You've also got any number of dragons that have become fans of Parthurnaax so that's another couple of dragons maybe. Even if they never land they would still tear the hell out of the Thalmor, who don't have anyone with the voice and therefore don't have anyone with dragonrend. I wouldn't say that the Nords beat the Thalmor in this eventuality (which I think this scenario is pretty realistic) but I'd definately give them a good fighting chance.

 

Well that's all of my 2 cents on that. I didn't take a stance on old Ulfric but I figured my explanations might go farther since it gives a little more consistent base to the arguments that have ensued.

[nicknaobaygio]

Great post Kronos, you speak my mind about the "duel" issue that i can't make it clear because of low-skill on English :).

 

I don't agree with Ulfric on a lot of his decision, as well as the Imperial but i feel with Ulfric, the Dovalkin will have more effect and control on the battle with the Thalmor, and with the leader of the Mage, Dominion, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, and friend of 2 dragons by their side, the Nord have a very good chance on the fight.

 

Kudos to you.

[Matth85]

It's been said several times that a duel is 2 people fighting with equal gear, and skill is the determining factor. Last time I checked time and dedication still fall more closely under the 'skill' category than the 'gear' category. Both Torryg and Ulfric are Nords. It is COMPLETE LORE-BASED FACT that ANY NORD can learn to use the voice given the proper amount of time and dedication. Ulfric put in the right amount of time and dedication, Torryg did not, there is NO 'gear' difference.

He could also learn magic. Using the shout goes against the teaching of the Greybeards, where he learned the shout, as a starter. Secondly this is a Nordic duel. We don't got all the facts up, but we do know where the concept of Skyrim came from. We also know the duel was for the seat. Now, it bcomes logical that this is a fight of "strength". Using the shout got nothing to do with strength, not when Ulfric had 20 years to practice it and the High King had what, 2 years?

 

And because Torryg could not use this ancient Nord tradition

Which would be fine, IF they were of equal age. The fact that Ulfric could practice using the voice for ten times the time Torygg could, does not make it fine.

Let me ask you this: If I duel you to a duel, knowing I am ten times as experienced as you, and yet I use a skilll that takes ages to learn -- and I've had ten times the time to practice it on you, would you NOT consider that murder?

 

There is a loading screen with a quote about the High King sitting in with his Jagged Crown belching whirlwinds from the voice.

At a time where the voice was more used, and the High King actually knew what he was doing. DId it look like the High King had a chance? That is the point. Ulfric used the voice to get a chance to be a High King. Nobody ever comlained about the High King, it was solely selfish.

 

SKYRIM'S CHANCES AGAINST THE THALMOR

 

I think people underestimate the power of the Thalmor. As a starter 1 dragon will not help you out in the long run. Yeah, perhaps it will be able to take down 20 THalmor the first day. It can't fly from magic, and the Thalmor are masters of magic.

 

So it's not exactly like the Stormcloaks are unaccustomed to fighting

Half of them are also dead by the time the Civil war is over. Have you seen the map over conquered areas? The Imperials have 2/3rd of the map. The only reason they won the war is because of you. Now add a foe that is twenty times as many and ten times as strong.

And why do you think Skyrim alone would do better than Hammerfell, Cyrodiil and Skyrim together? I fail to see the logic there. You then got what, 5 times the people and a bigger tactical oppertunity?

I wouldn't say that the Nords beat the Thalmor in this eventuality (which I think this scenario is pretty realistic) but I'd definately give them a good fighting chance.

But you can't say the same if the same scenario happened, but this time you had Redguards and Imperial Soldiers helping out?

 

Still, it is very easy to see the value in keeping a live rebel leader and his retinue for information on remaining hostiles, at least until the conflict cools down.

The Stormcloak is a rebell gang. They are not as organized and rooted as you would think. Cut of the head, I.E. Ulfric, and most will crawl back to their town and stop caring. It's not like they got a second-in command that would be able to do what Ulfric wanted, and yet keep everybody in line.

 

Heck, the reason the Thalmor is messing around is because of Ulfric, and then he kills the King. How on earth is that logical? The guy outskilled the High King, and killed him before he had a chance to react. He did it for personal gain - nothing else. We all know Ulfric is the reason for the chaos in SKyrim, the reason for about everything related to the Thalmor, and he wants to be the High King. How the heck is that logical? "Let the idiot who started a civil war, and got Talos banned, sit on the throne! That will surely not make thing worse. He is also a master planner who managed to hold 1/3 of Skyrim without a demigod helping him!" -- My point being: Ulfric havn't done a thing right since he stepped up. He murdered a young High King for no reason, he threw Skyrim into chaos and the brought the attention of the Thalmor. It is not a duel of strength when one is a veteran fighter, and the other a boy who havn't had a fight in a long time. It becomes even worse when he can not refuse, and he fights an opponent who breaks every rule given to him with the voice.

 

Really, the more we get into Ulfric, the more I hate the guy. Come on, say ONE thing he have done right?

Starting a rebell group? --> Thalmor comes

Killing the High King? --> Why did the High King need to die? It also started a Civil War.

Getting rid of the Imperials? --> Yup. Having 1/3rd of the tactical points of Skyrim shows how good they are.

 

My only 2 points I don't get that people don't understand:

How is ONE better than THREE? Really? How?

And, why should Ulfric lead a country, when he is the sole reason it went down? Joey the random beggas is a better leader than him.

[marharth]

I have really changed my mind now. After reading through a few topics here and playing a bit more, the stormcloaks are terrible. The empire also isn't great, but they are better then the stormcloaks.