LobselVith66 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I was actually dead-set on joining the Stormcloaks at the start of the game, mainly because Ralof was a pretty cool guy. But that all changed when I entered Whiterun. It was probably the moment just after first speaking to him that I realised that his way was the wrong way to go. As said by a few people, his goals are just and fairly good ones, its just the methods and mindset he has in obtaining them. He advocates cultural diversity while quelling the culture of other races in the process. He treats other races at best as a minor nuisance and a tool. And I actually have a problem with his goal of defeating the Thalmor. How can he do that with just one province and the nation buffer that is the Empire in the way? He didn't think it out very well. If you're taking about the Bear of Markarth, it's rifle with inaccuracies that are contested by the people who were actually living in Markarth at the time, including Jarl Igmund. We don't see Jarl Ulfric trying to quell other races, he doesn't have any issue if the protagonist is not Nord, he wants to defeat the Thalmor and separate Skyrim from the Empire because he doesn't agree with the direction that the Empire is going in. And how is the Empire going to defeat the Thalmor if the Empire doesn't plan on dealing with them in a proactive manner? The Thalmor have been kidnapping people, torturing them, and killing them, with full impunity. If the Stormcloaks want to put an end to that, I think it's to their credit that they want to remove the Thalmor from Skyrim and refuse to appease them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinisister Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Well-put, LobselVith66! I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenu Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I think you're putting too much stock into his willingness to accept the player's race. That's purely because Bethesda didn't want to lock players out of an entire quest line based on what race they played as. His acceptance has far more to do with basic gameplay than anything lore related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LobselVith66 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I think you're putting too much stock into his willingness to accept the player's race. That's purely because Bethesda didn't want to lock players out of an entire quest line based on what race they played as. His acceptance has far more to do with basic gameplay than anything lore related. I disagree. Ralof addresses the fact that the protagonist isn't a Nord, and still encourages him to join the Stormcloaks because he doesn't think it takes a Nord to fight for Skyrim's freedom. Even the two belligerent Nords in Windhelm are upset that the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloak cause. If Ulfric banned other races from joining the Stormcloaks, I don't think we would see this. In fact, one elven character can even be a member of the Stormcloaks during a mission to claim a Dragon Priest mask, so the ability for a non-Nord to be one of the Stormcloaks isn't isolated to the protagonist, especially since Ulfric seems to be involved in the initiation process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linsolv Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 You could argue that the Stormcloaks are modeled on the early Nazi party, but it wouldn't make sense, as Ulfric never says anything about who should be allowed to live in what he perceives to be "his" country. In that sense, he's more like WWII America. Anyone of any race could join the army, they just couldn't be in CHARGE of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEXiT Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 OP, i think you will find ulfric and the storm cloaks were modeled on the nazi party, hitler and his black shirts.i two started the game again 1s ulfrics true intentions were know. i even brokered a peace in his favour, but i started hearing skyrim to the true nords and go back to where you came from,. leave a sour taste in my mouth... then when i restarted i decided to help the empire and found them to be just as despicable but for other reasons... classic empire or tyrant... over all i have about 100 hours already in the game and im just about done with everything listed in general quests..but im glad to say the reunification of skyrim whichever side you choose does make the game feel slightly different. 1 things for sure there are some satisfying twists for the empire haters out there... you will not just be a king killer... an entire empire will be at your feet... still ulfric as a game character is a very disturbing individual. but the way bethista have actually got me to care about what i do in this game deserves credit... I doubt that the Stormcloaks were modeled on WWII Germany. Rolaf makes it clear that anyone can become a member of the Stormcloaks, the argument at Windhelm with the two belligerent Nords is over the lack of Dunmers joining the Stormcloaks, and Ulfric has absolutely no problem with a non-Nord becoming a member of the Stormcloaks. Is there racism in the Stormcloaks? Yes, just like there is racism in the Legion, in the Holds, in the different provinces, and throughout all of Nirn. There are people who are racist - plain and simple. If you're familiar with the Elder Scrolls universe, you would realize this as a facet of Tamriel. I don't see the point in vilifying either side. Neither the Legion nor the Stormcloaks are perfect, they are both very imperfect factions lead by flawed but well-meaning men. Ulfric doesn't see the Legion doing anything about the Thalmor but submitting to their whims and placating them, with civilians getting kidnapped, tortured, and murdered at the hands of Thalmor Justiciars with full Legion sanction. You could argue that the Empire is simply bidding its time, but that's one possible explanation, while the other is that the Empire is going to let the status quo remain unless the Thalmor make a move against them. Will that be in a few months, years, or centuries? Ulfric is taking a course of action that he thinks is necessary, while Tullis is taking an opposing route because Tullis believes in the Legion while Ulfric believes that Skyrim must emancipate itself from a failing Empire. Clearly, no one is going to agree on a consensus over whether the Legion or the Stormcloaks is the right course of action, but I see no reason to put the black hat on Ulfric or the Stormcloaks simply because you favor the Legion. Neither side is perfect, but neither side is a villain, either. They both have their own positives and negatives that come from supporting them, and one of the significant positives for the Stormcloaks is their willingness to kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim and oppose their tyranny. The Thalmor want to eradicate reality as the people of Nirn known it, and they are a serious threat. the reason i equated them with the nazi's is the way they put it across in the game... yes you can be a storm cloak but you would never be a true nord. ie polish ss, yes you can be an ss officer but you will never be aaryan... i really do think this is what they were aiming for with the stormcloacks... actually m8 i feel it goes a little deeper than that. in 1 of the missions you have to get some dossiers on ulfric and the 2 blades members. you will see that it was the thalmore that allowed ulfrics escape and subsequent rise to power. as a thalmore puppet he was to keep the empire bogged down in skyrim for as long as the thalmore needed him to. while the thalmore secretly worked against the empire. this was no "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" as soon as he outlived his usefulness he was to be gotten rid of anyway. as they say under no circumstances shall ulfric be allowed to actually win against the empire.but hey in my skyrim there is no empire coz i just assassinated the emperor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LobselVith66 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 The game doesn't depict the Stormcloaks as WWII Germany. A "true Nord," as in someone who isn't willing to capitulate to the Thalmor, who want to eradicate existence as they know it. Ulfric and other members of the Stormcloaks have no problem with non-Nords becoming members of their ranks, including but not limited to the protagonist, and we never see Ulfric display any racism towards people for being non-Nords. He hates the Thalmor, but they are trying to subjugate the whole of Tamriel, and aim to destroy everything. In fact, the storeowner in Falkreath is accepting of outsiders precisely because of his time with the Stormcloaks. Also, why do people keep saying Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet - did you actually read the dossier? He refused to work for the Thalmor, and a Stormcloak victory in the civil war is seen has a bad outcome for the Dominion. And Ulfic does win if the Dragonborn supports his efforts to establish an independent Skyrim, free from Imperial and Thalmor control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEXiT Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 i could find the reference and quote it but that would be to much of a spoiler but it doesnt paint him in a very good colour... all i can say is play the game you will see for yourself. make sure your read everything that applies to a mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LobselVith66 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 i could find the reference and quote it but that would be to much of a spoiler but it doesnt paint him in a very good colour... all i can say is play the game you will see for yourself. make sure your read everything that applies to a mission. The dossier addresses that Ulfric isn't taking orders since he was allegedly "let go," and that a Stormcloak victory would be bad for the Thalmor. How does that paint him in a negative light? Because the Thalmor tortured him, and he wants to see Skyrim rid of any degree of Thalmor control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linsolv Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 i could find the reference and quote it but that would be to much of a spoiler but it doesnt paint him in a very good colour... all i can say is play the game you will see for yourself. make sure your read everything that applies to a mission. This is the spoiler forum. SPOIL AWAY FRIEND-O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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