LobselVith66 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 1; in game, yes, but in game the city has about 50 people in it. Hardly a village at that count. Based on the statements from people in game, the Grey Quarter is in considerably worse condition than the rest of the city. 2; The Dunmer refugees fled Morrowind almost 200 years before Skyrim. At the time, the Nords were among the most welcoming of peoples in Tamriel. Temperments change, however. The point remains that 'doesnt kick them out' and 'lets them live' are absolutely piss poor arguements against racist tendancies. You could have just as easily argued that no one in Alabama was racist because they didn't send the blacks back to Africa. The arguement its self is racist. People like Brunwulf Free-Winter are the exception, not the rule. This is Tamriel - there are plenty of people with close-minded thoughts about other races, from Nords to Dunmer. As for Ulfric, you could argue he's helping the people he thinks will get him the position of High King of Skyrim - his people, the Nords. Addressing that he doesn't expel the Dunmer from his city is simply pointing out that he apparently doesn't have an issue with Dunmer living in his city. I don't think anyone is claiming that Ulfric is perfect or a saint here, simply that some are trying to point out that he's not some black hat, cardboard cutout villain. It's all a matter of opinion and perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Again, its a racist arguement. By helping the people who can get him the throne he's no better than, say, a president helping white people because blacks can't vote. The entire dynamic shows how Nord-centric and racist he is. As for the 'exception' thing, The Infernal City says that the Dunmer were welcomed into Skyrim ans Solsthiem. Not reluctantly accepted, not forced in by the Empire, welcomed. There has been an obvious paradigm shift to create the racism we see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombomb Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 What's the problem with Ulfric being racist? So is his enemies.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LobselVith66 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Again, its a racist arguement. By helping the people who can get him the throne he's no better than, say, a president helping white people because blacks can't vote. The entire dynamic shows how Nord-centric and racist he is. The entire dynamic could illustrate that Ulfric is focused on becoming the new High King. I created a Dunmer mage that sided with the Legion, in part, because of Ulfric's focus on Nords to the exclusion of others, including the plight of the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter, but I don't see Ulfric as some black hat villain. There is good and bad with the Stormcloaks and the Empire, and one of the faults of the Stormcloak cause is the focus on Nords to the detriment of others; however, let's not forget that the Empire banned the worship of Talos and allows the Thalmor to kidnap, torture, and kill people if they so much as suspect that the person (or persons) worship Talos. Ulfric was similarly tortured by the Thalmor during the Great War when he fought against them alongside the Empire. As for the 'exception' thing, The Infernal City says that the Dunmer were welcomed into Skyrim ans Solsthiem. Not reluctantly accepted, not forced in by the Empire, welcomed. There has been an obvious paradigm shift to create the racism we see. If you read On The Great Collapse, it's mentioned that some Nords thought the Dunmer would leave Skyrim for Solstheim, and were irate when the Dunmer didn't leave Winterhold. "When Solstheim was generously offered to the Dunmer as a new home, I was as surprised as any. I did not, however, share the apparent expectation that all dark elves would leave Skyrim. It did not go unnoticed that many in Winterhold were unhappy at how many mages chose to stay at the College rather than relocate." In addition, it's mentioned that some of the Dunmer were driven out of Winterhold after the Great Collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handofbane Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 however, let's not forget that the Empire banned the worship of Talos and allows the Thalmor to kidnap, torture, and kill people if they so much as suspect that the person (or persons) worship Talos. Ulfric was similarly tortured by the Thalmor during the Great War when he fought against them alongside the Empire.You mean the worship of Talos bit that the Empire was completely ignoring enforcement of... until Ulfric himself made the demands after retaking Markarth, bringing it to the attention of the Thalmor and by extension causing the very persecution we now see? Read "The Bear of Markarth", it covers this fairly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khorak Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Ulfric is a bit of a phallus, but he's one man. And Windhelm is just one city. As High King he can set the Thalmor killing policies, but he can't exactly change the very culture of Skyrim. Nowhere else in Skyrim is there really any level of Ulfric-ness going on. Jarls still rule their cities, and owing allegiance to Ulfric as the High King doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to everyone who isn't a Nord....which they aren't. After he's taken over, nothing really changes on that front. The High King can feel free to spend the treasury on raising armies for the future Altmer Murder Parade, but that's about it. It's a feudal system, after all, and being the guy in charge in such a system actually makes it HARDER to do some things than it would have been before. As Jarl of Windhelm he can do whatever the hell he wants in Windhelm. As High King he's going to get lobbied by every single person in Skyrim. Every. Single. One. Have fun with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkreativ Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 What's the problem with Ulfric? I think he's a nice guy and I support him until my (virtual) life ends. :P You are all milk-drinkers (I hope that word is used in the english version too). :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linsolv Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Again, its a racist arguement. By helping the people who can get him the throne he's no better than, say, a president helping white people because blacks can't vote. The entire dynamic shows how Nord-centric and racist he is. As for the 'exception' thing, The Infernal City says that the Dunmer were welcomed into Skyrim ans Solsthiem. Not reluctantly accepted, not forced in by the Empire, welcomed. There has been an obvious paradigm shift to create the racism we see. Actually, no. It's proving how racist the SYSTEM is. I'm not racist if I say that black people IRL make less money than white people in the same job and acting based on that knowledge. Because I'm just reacting rationally to a racist system. You might argue it's heartless of me, or cruel, because I'm not doing anything to FIX it, but it's not actually racist, just logical. It's worth noting, there is exactly one person in the city who is actively racist against the Dunmer. You can argue that he's allegorically representing multiple people, but then why don't we see anyone blaming Balgruuf for the Talos crier? Couldn't he ALSO be representing multiple people? Yet, the Empire doesn't move against Whiterun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 As a leader, Ulfric is capable, and expected, to challenge the system. He doesn't. As such, he bears the racism of that system, and he seems to do so rather proudly. The Talos crier in Whiterun is most definately representitive of a population, and he represents the Empire (Though be speaks out against them). No one likes the White Gold Concordant. Even Tullius makes a prayer to Talos at least once. The differance is the Empire is willing to suck it up to keep the Thamor off their backs while they recover (Humans have shorter generations and reproduce faster, and as such can replace their losses and retrain troops faster than the Domminion). I also think that the crack pot shows how far you can push things without getting in trouble. We know it was Ulfric kicking up a stink which brought the Thalmor down on Skyrim, and forced the Empire to start enforcing the Concordant, so what did he go and do that makes a crazy religious cook get ignored? As for the milk-drinkers... Alright, you go ahead and drink your mead, and we;ll see how well your knees hold up to my arrows, ya drunk Nordic fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LobselVith66 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 however, let's not forget that the Empire banned the worship of Talos and allows the Thalmor to kidnap, torture, and kill people if they so much as suspect that the person (or persons) worship Talos. Ulfric was similarly tortured by the Thalmor during the Great War when he fought against them alongside the Empire. You mean the worship of Talos bit that the Empire was completely ignoring enforcement of... until Ulfric himself made the demands after retaking Markarth, bringing it to the attention of the Thalmor and by extension causing the very persecution we now see? Read "The Bear of Markarth", it covers this fairly well. The Empire did enforce it - and the Thalmor were allowed to go into the Empire and root out Talos worship because of the White-Gold Concordt. I don't see why people feel the need to make this such a black and white issue when it clearly isn't. The Empire isn't perfect, and neither are the Stormcloaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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