I will give Ulfric credit

[Matth85]

I think he's a nice guy

nice

... o.O

 

The guy who killed the high king in the worse way possible?

The guy who wants to kick out anything that is not a Nord out of Skyrim?

The guy who is so power hungry he doesn't care who he steps on?

The guy who wants the old tradition back, where the Nord where barbaric: Jarls killing each other for more land?

 

Are we playing the same game here?

Edited December 16, 2011 by Matth85

[Alex4921]

The dude reminded me of the terminator and his voice was badass.

Nevertheless i enjoyed equipping him with the executioner hood from the DB induction quest then chopping his head off with the executioners axe.

[marharth]

I think he's a nice guy

nice

... o.O

 

The guy who killed the high king in the worse way possible?

The guy who wants to kick out anything that is not a Nord out of Skyrim?

The guy who is so power hungry he doesn't care who he steps on?

The guy who wants the old tradition back, where the Nord where barbaric: Jarls killing each other for more land?

 

Are we playing the same game here?

How is getting a sword to your chest the worst way to die? The high king did not die from the shout, he died from the sword after he was knocked down by the shout.

[Lachdonin]

How is getting a sword to your chest the worst way to die? The high king did not die from the shout, he died from the sword after he was knocked down by the shout.

 

He challenged a barely-man to a duel he could not refuse, used a borderline magical attack in a martial duel, and pittilessly ran the poor boy through before he could even get to his feet. If you walk to Toryg in Sovengarde, he tells you straight up he knew he was a dead man when Ulfric challenged him, and that All Ulfric did was shout at him, knock him down and run him trough. Hardly a sporting tactic, and a terribly honourless way for poor Toryg to die.

[Khorak]

The Empire isn't perfect, and neither are the Stormcloaks.

 

Especially since playing through the Legion missions is not the experience people have been claiming it is on these forums. I bit the bullet and did them; Tullius' tone about it clearly being a mistake for me to be on the block for execution at the start of the game is sarcastic. That worthless piece of s*** doesn't give a damn about the mind bogglingly massive injustice he was about the watch be committed (and remember that, he's the highest authority in the whole land and he was happy to watch abystander be executed for nothing, that bowl-cut tool could have said, "Set her free", three words, and job done), he only cares about you when, oh, as it turns out you're an unstoppable death machine who is so idiotically loyal and obedient you forgot about the whole 'cut your head off' thing.

 

And on the racism front, I could only laugh when I walked into his room to sign up, and....he goes off on a racist rant about 'you Nords' and how their traditions are getting in his way to Legate Rikke. Whilst in Skyrim. Which he has to govern. Welcome to the all-inclusive Empire, the multicultural melting pot of Tamr-HAHAHAHA! Oh God I couldn't even get through that. The Empire is racist, it wants to impose its own cultural expectations, political desires and laws upon everyone in Tamriel. It has no intrinsic respect for the local culture, just tolerance when what it wants is done obediently. Presumably people forget why it's called 'The Empire', what an Empire actually is, and how Tamriel reached this point in the first place....uh....because the Empire spent the entire Third Era kicking the crap out of anyone and anything to swipe their stuff and force their compliant fealty. Hmmm.

 

The Stormcloaks are fighting for their independence, their racism is very in-your-face because of that. Their campaign is built entirely upon the idea of 'kicking them out' and obviously, Windhelmers take it too far (admittedly it's hilarious to hear Niranye blame it on the Dark Elves themselves). The Empire, it has to be remembered, is fighting to retain its foreign hegemony over a subject province...their racism is kind of already part of the institutional status quo. "Do what the Imperials say or the Legion kills your face" is....well, if you bother analysing it, we might as well be talking about the British Empire in India. And if you think that was an a-ok situation, I have a rainbow bridge to Asgard to sell you.

[Lachdonin]

The Empire, it has to be remembered, is fighting to retain its foreign hegemony over a subject province...

 

This is realy starting to bug me, as everyone seems to come back to this one point. Fact; The Empire is no more a foreign occupier of Skyrim than The USA is of New York. New York is expected to follow federal laws and customs regardless of its local idocincracies, isn't it?

 

That said, yes, there is racism in the Legion. And so there should be, its natural in a world where Men and Mer don't get along. I feel Bethesda really dropped the ball in Oblivion by taking out the racism, as it was rampant in Morrowind as well.

 

There is a marked differance between the racism of Tullius and the racism of Ulfric, however. Tullius is willing to follow nordic tradition even if he thinks its all bonkers. If he wasn't, he'd never have sent you after the jagged crown. He's also willing to fight and die for people he has no respect for, simply out of duty. Ulfric, on the other hand, is not willing to compromise his high and mighty cultural perspective for anything.

 

As for the execution thing, have you considered that the Military Governor of Skyrim may not be checking the lists himself? Whose to say the captain who sends you to the block even informs him you're not a Stormcloak. Do you expect him to personally do a background check on every last prisoner? Do you think Ulfric would in his possition?

 

Tullius is far from a saint. He actually made me hang my head when he confronted Ulfric and said "I'll send you to wherever you nords go when you die". But he's a far cry from Ulfric.

[Matth85]

How is getting a sword to your chest the worst way to die? The high king did not die from the shout, he died from the sword after he was knocked down by the shout.

 

As Lachdonin explained perfectly:

the High King was challenged to a DUEL. The concept of a duel is EQUAL weapons, EQUAL armor. It's only skill that should count. Using the shout is the same as bringing a minigun to a dagger duel. The other part got no chance, and it is as honorable as me using said minigun on somebody shackled to a nuke.

 

Tullius may be quite ignorant, but at least he is not stupid. Ulfric is both ignorant AND stupid, not to mention selfish and power hungry.

[Khorak]

This is realy starting to bug me, as everyone seems to come back to this one point. Fact; The Empire is no more a foreign occupier of Skyrim than The USA is of New York. New York is expected to follow federal laws and customs regardless of its local idocincracies, isn't it?

 

Fact: That's bulls***.

 

It's a poor attempt to legitimise the Empire for having forcibly subjugated Tamriel. Impressive as the act may have been, impressive enough that Tiber Septims audacity and capability caused the Nords to bend knee to him quite happily, it is still the case that the Empire is the Cyrodiilic Empire, not the Nordic Empire. It is still a fact that Skyrim is a foreign province of that Empire, a seperate country that is required to pay tribute, follow the laws and give fealty. As it happens for much of the Third Era the Empire rather pleased the Nords and their cultural desire to beat the hell out of everything for the twin reasons of personal glory and having a good laugh. Now it doesn't. With the Empire beocming something the Nords no longer respect, their fealty to it is no longer guaranteed.

 

New York as an example is....extraordinarily poor. New York is, in fact, the worst possible of thirteen examples you could ever have chosen because the damn place is one of the original Thirteen Colonies that created the United States federal government! You just claimed that Cyrodiil is occupied....by Cyrodiil. In response to the issue that Skyrim is occupied by Cyrodiil. It doesn't make sense. Skyrim is a distinct nation that is occupied by a Cyrodiilic Empire, it's that simple.

 

That said, yes, there is racism in the Legion. And so there should be, its natural in a world where Men and Mer don't get along. I feel Bethesda really dropped the ball in Oblivion by taking out the racism, as it was rampant in Morrowind as well.

 

The endless conflict between Man and Mer has been a staple of the Elder Scrolls, yes. Skyrim is underlining a new era of that. The Empire was a force for unification for all (emphasis on force...), but with the new changes it seems the Empire, all of Tamriel really, is disintegrating in favour of battlelines being drawn up on racial lines as opposed to political ones once again. By removing the Empire we're looking more at a grand conflict between Men and Elves, not Big Political Blob #1 versus Big Political Blob #2. There's going to be collateral all over the place. Messy collateral.

 

There is a marked differance between the racism of Tullius and the racism of Ulfric, however. Tullius is willing to follow nordic tradition even if he thinks its all bonkers. If he wasn't, he'd never have sent you after the jagged crown. He's also willing to fight and die for people he has no respect for, simply out of duty. Ulfric, on the other hand, is not willing to compromise his high and mighty cultural perspective for anything.

 

Legate Rikke convinced him that Ulfric getting the crown would allow him to draw more support. Tullius is not following Nordic tradition, he is stopping his enemy following Nordic tradition to gain more support. And if the Jagged Crown has come back to him, he might as well toss it at the Empires puppet.

 

As for the execution thing, have you considered that the Military Governor of Skyrim may not be checking the lists himself? Whose to say the captain who sends you to the block even informs him you're not a Stormcloak. Do you expect him to personally do a background check on every last prisoner? Do you think Ulfric would in his possition?

 

He is standing right there. Processing the completely unknown person in the group who is potentially not even a Nord is holding up his execution. And, the guy just watched someone screaming "I'M NOT ONE OF THEM!" run away and get shot down. At that point, anyone who isn't a rampaging arsehole takes a few steps over and asks, "What just happened Captain? What's the problem here?". Then he finds from me blurting the damn information out, or Hadvar. Then the Captain gets sent to the coldest, nastiest posting in the Empire for trying to murder people. Though you bring up another point; THANKS HADVAR. How much of a stink does our supposed 'good guy' kick up? Uh....none. No argument at all. "We don't even know who this person is! We can't execute an innocent bystander!"....nah, none of that. But hey, they'll send my two pieces back home with a 'To Whom It May Concern' letter. Thanks guys. You only know my first name, I'm sure my body can be left safely in your hands to be buried in some random place that may or may not be within five hundred miles of my home.

 

Tullius is far from a saint. He actually made me hang my head when he confronted Ulfric and said "I'll send you to wherever you nords go when you die". But he's a far cry from Ulfric.

 

He is a far cry from Ulfric only so far as Ulfric displays vastly more outspoken conviction. One thing is for sure; both of them have no time for the culture or tradition of others, only what THEY want. Tullius is more weary; he isn't fighting for the highest rank going to reinvigorate his land and people as he sees it, he's just making sure the nail stays hammered down so Cyrodiil can continue doing whatever it wants, but he's still not a better person and neither is the Empire. What with it being an Empire.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Khorak

[Lachdonin]

First off, i chose New York exactly because it was a founding member. Bringing Cyrodiil to heel was more of a fight for Talos than Skyrim. The Greybears proclaimed him Ysmir, and the entire province practically signed on. It was never forcibly brought into line like, say, Hammerfel and Highrock. As such, i deliberately chose a state which had not only always been part of the USA, but was also a founding member.

 

Second, Tullius is convinced by Rikke to invest lives and resources in a tradition he doesn;t beleive in. That takes a degree of humility. It takes even more to admit, once you complete the mission, that there is some worth to these Nordic traditions. He clearly doesn't like them, but he's still willing to abide by them. Can the same be said for Ulfric?

 

Third, how many people have you met who can be completely awair of everything going on around them at all times? I've known incedents where someone shot an automatic weapon off on the busiest street in the city, during peak shopping hours, and no one saw a thing. Take a hectic, stressful situation, throw in known enemies on both sides of you (Stormcloaks in front, Thalmor in back *And Tullius views the Thalmor very much as enemies*) and claiming that Tullius should know every minute detail of whats going on is absurd. As for Lokir making a run for it, criminals proclaim their innosence all the time. Thats not exactly a convincing piece of evidence.

 

Fourth, Tullius WANTS to take the fight to the Thalmor. He views the entire Skyrim civil was as a disctraction. There are several hints in his speech and that of Legate Rikke that, prior to Ulfric kicking up a stink, the Empire was preparing for another war. However, Tullius sets asside his own wants to do his duty, whereas Ulfric is only interested in his own wants.

 

And the one thing i will quote...

 

What with it being an Empire.

 

And what the hell is wrong with an empire? Has the world become so jaded by Star Wars that the word Empire is preminantly tainted? The Empire has brought centuries of peace to Tamriel, and prosperity none of the Provinces have known in at least 2 ages, some not at all. Yes, it has its own interests, but there is nothing to indicate that Cyrodiil intersts are Empire interests. In fact, the first people to break off from the Empire after the Oblivion Crisis were Cyrodiil cities, who then had to be brought back into line.

 

The Empire is not, and has never been a Cyrodiil centric entity. Its capital is there because it is where Talos's career started, and its the most central province. The actual functioning of the Empire has been shown to be more akin to that of a modern federal government than a classical Empire.

[Schattenu]

I was about to bring up that Empire thing. I love how people hear the word "empire" and automatically think it's this tyranny on par with the Galactic Empire of Star Wars, like the concept of a benevolent empire is simply absurd.

 

As for the execution: Yeah, WE know our character is innocent. They don't. They found you with a bunch of Stormcloak they were planning to ambush, you think they're just going to let you go on your word alone? Because criminals NEVER lie about their guilt, right? I'm not saying what they did was morally right, but given their situation, from a tactical standpoint, better to accidentally execute one innocent than let an enemy go. Is it right? Probably not, by most people's morals, but it is intelligent for the situation.

 

I don't think anyone here is saying that anything about this war is black and white -- that would be pretty damn ignorant. The general consensus seems to be that neither side is a staple of heroics. But you're vilifying the Empire too much. Whether or not Ulfric is worse depends on the person, I think, but it's pretty ridiculous to think he's a better person on any level than Tullius. They may be equal with each other, but Ulfric is sure as hell not better.