Qwinn´s Ultimate DAO Fixpack v3 (no longer beta!)

[Qwinn]

This fix is being moved to the REDACTED section:

 

RD002: "Rescue the Queen": (v2.0) You can get into a fight with Ser Cauthrien, "kill" her, and loot her sword. If you are then killed/captured by the rest of her group, you will meet her again just before the Landsmeet. That has not been changed: it's quite possibly intentional that she was revived in the same way your own party members revive after being "killed" if your party doesn't actually lose a battle. However, if you looted her sword during that first fight, she will now no longer have a second copy of that unique sword when you meet her again, she will instead have a normal red steel greatsword. (v3.0) Much credit to ViktoriaLanders of the Nexus forums, who pointed out: "If you get Cauthrien's sword mid-fight but then lose the fight and end up with rags in prison, isn't it normal that Cauthrien's men will retrieve the greatsword and return it to their boss?" Clearly. Kudos, didn't think of that. And there's no way to get Captured! with Cauthrien dead, therefore, RQ012 is being replaced with a more logical fix to the issue.

 

The new RQ012:

 

RQ012: "Rescue the Queen": If you "kill" Ser Cauthrien and loot the Summer Sword from her, and then proceed to lose the fight and get yourself Captured!, Ser Cauthrien survives (because her remaining team members can revive her, just as the party's team can be revived until they all die). Therefore, the Summer Sword will be returned to Ser Cauthrien rather than placed in the player's inventory chest during Captured! In this circumstance, she will have the sword when she is met later at the Landsmeet. Note for completionist players that there is still a use for "killing" her and getting the sword during the "Rescue the Queen" fight: this allows you to get the sword's associated codex entry without having to permanently kill her at any point in the game.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Qwinn

[Pinjanna]

Ok, so I've just read through this whole argument and I have a few thoughts to offer.

 

Apart from this one quest, this game is actually very consistent at referring to the Templars as such rather than just calling them Knights (out of context). I'd assume it's at least partly to avoid confusion. In order to keep up with the consistency and to avoid confusion, I'd suggest that this quest needs fixing even if you end up retracting the current fix.

 

Anyways, I was so happy to see a new version of this fixpack. It has been part of my installation for years. (I'm dreading going through my Improved Atmosphere files though. I don't think these two are going to be compatible at all. IA's backbone are the area files and you seem to be modifying many of the same.)

 

(Also, there definitely is a need for a all-in-one fixpack for combat mechanics...)

[AdenYeshua]

Aside from Harrith, who doesn't show up until after the entire situation is resolved and really is just a fetchit-quest delivery recipient for the Mage Collective quest and has no dialogue related to anything else whatsoever

 

By my count and memory, that's four official knights that showed up after the battle, right after the battle. You are a fan of not going the next step so I will spell it out. Then they proceeded to do what they always do when Ferelden needs their help, nothing. They did not even attempt to use the four or five soldiers to free Redcliffe castle.

 

The actual note hints at something interesting to me.

 

A knight's note.

So many of my fellow knights have been searching for the Urn. Surely one of them must have found Brother Genitivi by now. Still, until I hear that all is well, I must proceed as planned. Brother Genitivi holds the key to finding the Urn of Sacred Ashes: We always knew this, but I believe I now know where Brother Genitivi lies. I have been to his home in Denerim and found the trail, and I am amazed that other knights have not done likewise. Unless they have? No, it is best not to get caught up in thoughts of conspiracy. Ser Donall awaits my report in Lothering. I must go to him immediately and report what I have learned. Should anyone find these ramblings, all I ask is that he be informed of my fate. I pray that he complete what I cannot.

--A note from Ser Henric of Redcliffe.

The description of the note is from the Dragon Age Wiki (or originated there), that is why people are torn when something is off there. An argument could be made for both sides, the person was working and copying text from a more updated writer's script, or it's not in the game so it doesn't count. Anyway...

 

He is operating under the presumption the other knights are looking, the note points to ramblings and maybe a conspiracy. Hinting that it was easy to find Genitivi. Even after the Dragon is slain, the location was known, Genitivi study and all obstacles removed the Chantry still has no interest in retrieving the artifact, it's never heard from again.

 

Considering what we know about all three games, there was barely an effort put forth by the Chantry, if that even qualifies.

 

See that is what I find so ironic and perhaps a little sad. Questions like the ones I'm asking, and dmg22, and presumably others will keep coming. You keep throwing them into one neat pile of "The Fallen Templar Quest" but the truth is I've stopped arguing that awhile ago. Now the fallout that I warned you about ensues. It opens up so much and leaves the Chantry an organization the Bioware has spent three games illustrating that should never be crossed and throws it in an opposite light. They look incompetent and weak, three people and a dog managed to do what they couldn't. You say they put up a real "dial it up to 11" effort? No, no they didn't. The Chantry has handled High Dragons before, a real effort would have been 600,000 scholars. About double that in troops. Even then that would be considered a passable effort by the chantry standards.

 

Instead, we the player have to dig deep and fill in, we have to ask questions and look hard. At the end, we are left with "Meh whatever I guess they weren't really interested in the Urn" because again the Warden is seen using the Ash's and everything is ripe for just walking in. The fact that Lilianna is involved at all shows just how much they didn't care.

 

My vote now that this church involvement is taken as fact, is just what the note is hinting at. Which is a conspiracy -not- to disturb the Ash's. Officially I think they were compelled to do something if I had all the resources that the Chantry has/had at my disposal THIS would count as a bare minimum effort if any effort at all.

Edited June 14, 2017 by AdenYeshua

[Qwinn]

Pinjama:

 

I'm glad you posted that, because it led me to look specifically for "consistency", and I quickly found something I think clinches my argument. If I offered you a single place where Bioware uses "Templar" and "knight" *interchangeably*, would that advance my argument? How about if that place is the primary source of this entire debate, the Fallen Templar plot file?

 

When you find discrepancies in the game like this, it is very frequently a result of two people working on different aspects of a quest with different ideas of what's going on - like, for example, the guy who does the description for the items being different from the guy who puts armor on the bodies in the Lothering area file. One guy thought he was just an Arl's knight, the other thought he was a Templar, and that's how these things happen.

 

And that's what I thought might have happened here, but I'm actually now convinced that it's not. Look: These are the three journal entries associated with the quest "A Fallen Templar":

 

• Finding the note: "You found the body of a templar, slain by bandits. His corpse had been picked clean of everything, save a note and a locket. Perhaps the locket will mean something to someone back in Lothering."
• When Lothering is destroyed: "It is unlikely that you will ever learn the identity of the fallen Templar."
• And when you give the note to Donall: "Ser Donall knew the fallen knight, Henric, and has taken the locket and the note."

 

The fallen KNIGHT, Ser Henric. In the exact same plot file where he gets referred to as a Templar three times (the entries and the quest title), the same person creating this quest calls him a knight. This is not what happens when two different programmers have different ideas. This is evidence that the whoever wrote this actual quest deliberately considered the terms interchangeable, which is essentially the entire basis of my argument. This is MUCH more evidence than anyone has provided for the opposing argument so far.

 

"this game is actually very consistent at referring to the Templars as such rather than just calling them Knights (out of context)."

 

Not as consistent as you'd think:

 

Cullen: "When you knew me, I was an innocent. I wanted to be a knight, but I never really thought about why we were needed."

 

Scripting comment in Ser Bryant's dialogue: "Templar = knight of the church"

 

Scripting comments from Ser Bryant's dialogue about capturing Sten: "I was with the knights that caught him at the farmhold". This was changed due to some conflict with the voiceover, but it's how the line was originally written.

 

I think you guys are wildly overestimating how many actual Templars with dialogue there are in this game. It's definitely less than 10, and that's counting just a handful of non-ambient lines as "dialogue".

Edited June 14, 2017 by Qwinn

[Qwinn]

"By my count and memory, that's four official knights that showed up after the battle, right after the battle."

 

Utterly perplexed by this repeated nonsensical claim, I just went through every area file in Redcliffe. There are, in fact, two Templars that do appear only after you have already found the Urn and have revived Eamon. They are explicitly Templars from the Circle Tower, they only show if you recruited Templars rather than mages, and they are preparing to help you fight the Darkspawn. They are not from Redcliffe. And they have an obviously much bigger mission on their hands at that precise moment.

 

Ser Henric (dead, but very concerned about the Urn in his note) and Ser Harrith (minimal side quest related dialogue) are the only Redcliffe Templars in the game. PERIOD. There is ZERO evidence of a Redcliffe Templar showing disinterest in the Urn. The ONLY known Redcliffe Templar with anything to say on the subject in the game *is Ser Henric*, and he cares about it a *great* deal.

 

"The description of the note is from the Dragon Age Wiki (or originated there),"

 

Incorrect. It is actually a part of the codex entry. I cut and pasted it from the plot file, not from the wiki.

 

Even after the Dragon is slain, the location was known, Genitivi study and all obstacles removed the Chantry still has no interest in retrieving the artifact, it's never heard from again.

Regardless of your actions in game, the epilogue ALWAYS addresses the fate of the Urn. ALWAYS. And if you killed the dragon, this is what you get:

 

News that the Urn of Sacred Ashes had been found in Ferelden did not spread outside the Chantry until Brother Genitivi made an announcement several months after the defeat of the darkspawn. The manuscript detailing his research and his experience with Andraste's cult drew huge interest among scholars throughout Thedas.

Some years later, the Chantry announced that the resting place of Andraste's Ashes had indeed been found. A ripple of excitement spread among the pious people of Thedas, with many undertaking pilgrimages to see the Ashes or partake of their healing powers.

 

And before you even TRY it - that they didn't spread their information about it until Genitivi blabbed does not even REMOTELY imply that they didn't care. Genitivi is frantically preparing for the immediate expedition in his dialogue in Denerim. If he blabbed months later, it's after coming back from his initial expedition. Which was organized by the Chantry.

 

 

This is what's killing me.

 

Aden: "There is no evidence AT ALL that the Chantry cared about the Urn! None whatsoever! Not even a smidgeon"

 

Me: "I give you the Chantry funding Genitivi's expedition. I give recruiting Leliana for the same purpose. I give you them being willing to repeatedly fail attempting to kill an enraged dragon to find it."

 

Aden: "So what! That's no evidence at all! And what about all the Redcliffe Templars who don't care?!?"

 

Me: "Aside from side-quest Harrith who has less than 10 lines of dialogue, they don't exist. At all. Never have. They are a figment of your imagination."

 

Aden: "And that makes four of them! Officially! And if any Templars had joined the quest, they would have HAD to have found it!, because they were portrayed in later games as gobsmackingly powerful! This makes them look like idiots!"

 

Me: "What? It was at most a small handful of Templars from a single local Chantry on this quest, and the only one that found Genitivi WAS THE TEMPLAR."

 

Aden: "Impossible, a single Templar would have more than sufficed, he should have killed every bandit in Lothering by flexing his biceps. Anything else contradicts lore. And how about the fact that we never hear about the Urn again?"

 

Me: "The only endings that doesn't describe the Chantry finding, or getting themselves killed trying to find the Urn are the ones where you basically destroy the ashes by tainting them, and/or killed Genitivi by stabbing him or driving him to suicide.."

 

 

Countdown in 3... 2... 1... Aden: "Which just proves my point!"

 

 

 

 

Aden: "But people will just keep asking questions forever!"

 

Me: "If the questions you and others have raised, based on the non-existence of characters that aren't even fictional within a fictional universe, and facts that are clearly, materially proven utterly incorrect on every single possible level with a barrage of in-game evidence, and objections that get every sequence of events backwards, are any indication of the questions that will 'continue to be asked" - well. Nothing I can ever do is going to cure easily confused people who don't pay any attention and are determined against all possible evidence to be that freaking wrong about everything. I've wasted a solid day of my life trying to unconfuse you, to absolutely no effect whatsoever."

Edited June 14, 2017 by Qwinn

[sialivi]

I apologize in advance if any of these bugs have already been covered or discussed, I'm still trying to catch up with the readme and this thread:

1) There's an elven mage by the name of Eadric studying at a table in the Circle Tower. After you speak to him, he will no longer be properly positioned on his chair but instead hover next to it. I'm not sure whether it happens when you play a human mage, I only know for sure it happens with an elven mage. Screenshot of the bug.

2) Not sure if this is possible to fix but there's a spot on the bridge in Ostagar where you can fall down. I've only had it happen during the battle at Ostagar, but it might very well be possible at other times as well. The spot is at one of the ballistas on the right side of the bridge as you're crossing to get to the tower. You end up trapped in a sea of darkspawn billboard sprites :smile:

.

3) If you head to your camp before you have encountered Bodahn, there's already an ox present at the camp. Bodahn only has one ox in Lothering and you end up with a 2nd ox in the camp once he joins you so it isn't his. I don't think it makes much sense for it to belong to the players party either since they have no wagon for it to pull. It could however belong to Levi Dryden from the Warden's Keep DLC who arrives in camp later with a wagon but no ox. I'd suggest removing the extra ox from the campsite until he appears, and maybe move it next to his wagon.

4) After Bodahn joins you at your camp, his wagon and ox are not removed from the spot where you first save him in Lothering.

5) There's a flying chessboard in the Circle Tower. It might be argued that since the tower is the home of mages a flying chessboard wouldn't be inconceivable, but I still think there's supposed to be a table underneath it. Screenshot.

6) During a conversation with Sarel in the Dalish camp two hunters join in. Once the discussion is over, the two hunters are no longer positioned correctly on their bench but instead hover next to it. [Update: Noticed you already mentioned this and deemed it "Ambient". I disagree; just like in the first bug I mentioned above the characters are left levitating and it's even more noticeable in the Dalish camp.]

7) Sighard, one of the Banns that have gone to Denerim for the Landsmeet, will at one point move from his usual table in the Gnawed Noble Tavern to join Alfstanna and Bryland at theirs. He is however facing the wrong way at their table. Screenshot.

Edited June 14, 2017 by sialivi

[AdenYeshua]

"By my count and memory, that's four official knights that showed up after the battle, right after the battle."

Utterly perplexed by this repeated nonsensical claim, I just went through every area file in Redcliffe.

 

There were two "heavy armor" knights standing behind the mother. I mistook them for Templars. Apparently, you lack the understanding of what working from memory works. You should look into that, anyway I acknowledge there aren't any Templars left in Redcliffe, furthering this argument that I've already acknowledged you've won. But keep at it, you've clearly got nothing better to do.

 

This is what's killing me.

 

Shouldn't kill you, you should not be so emotionally invested in it.

 

 

Aden: "There is no evidence AT ALL that the Chantry cared about the Urn! None whatsoever! Not even a smidgeon"

 

Not even in the slightest, in fact, I've acknowledged The Chantry had to have some involvement, hell I even came up with a few theories. See that is what I can't get around your erratic style of debating. If you can't even grasp what I'm saying, how can you comprehend undertones and deep meaning? In short, you can't... I say if there was an effort, there was a bare minimum effort on their part. You have presented one guy who got funding (maybe) a man who they made a bare minimum effort to secure and find and point out this "elaborate", "Dial to 11", and "robust effort" of deeper meaning and effort. When in fact it takes quite a bit of digging and connecting the dots to imagine a sort of effort on anyone's part.

 

"If the questions you and others have raised, based on the non-existence of characters that aren't even fictional within a fictional universe, and facts that are clearly,

 

I'd debate the clearly part, as it took you quite a bit of digging, even going as far as to use the toolset to find most of this information if it was clear you would have an intro with this argument. The FACT of the matter is it's not clear, not clear at all. The questions will keep coming, right, wrong, and indifferent, because as I stated a million times now it's unclear why Bioware decided to bury such a large partnership and why a holy relic only sends "ripples" and why such a lackluster effort of seemingly one branch was involved or interested in finding.

 

You continue to point to one-liners, and deeply buried text to spearhead this debate that they made a valiant effort it's just plain not the case. Nobody, I mean nobody that has ever played Dragon Age when the credits rolled was like "wow the Chantry really made an effort to find that Urn eh?" one can only surmise that is precisely what Bioware wanted you to think, why? I don't know.

 

Lastly, is the lack of respect for ME and my responses. You still just don't get it, and perhaps never will. Your really not a fan of undertones and deeper meaning. You've twisted and interpreted a very gray area Quest that could literally go either way. Bioware could issue a correction and stated he was a knight of Redcliffe and oops their mistake, everybody would not be surprised and champion the cause that he was always a knight of Redcliffe, that said the vice versa is true too. But you've twisted this into something that has to be one side. When simply put there is no way to really know.

 

This sort of arrogance and tone is just not necessary, you asked me to fight for the fix, I did. Though hardly impartial on the matter you devolved into the above post. I will not comment on this matter as I feel you are incapable of continuing with busting a blood vessel or having a seizure or something.

 

My final stance is yes it's possible, just like Mabari hunting for the Urn to. But it opens up to many questions unless DA4 closes this hole it just be easier to install the other mod and be done with it.

 

EDIT: Dmg22 you are correct, that commander would be strung up once the truth came to light leaving Redcliffe unguarded. Intentional or not, counting on a skeleton crew or not, it was a very bad call. Especially since the location of the Urn and the Scholar were both not known. Sending them off without a specified location or end date, and even if the succeeded there is no guarantee it would fix anything seems like the DUMBEST plot hole opening orders I've ever heard. Equivalent to telling Qwinn to find a jello cup somewhere in the USA with markings on it, because it might cure my best friends illness, meanwhile I want you to leave your door unlocked and your keys with me.

Edited June 14, 2017 by AdenYeshua

[Qwinn]

• "Apparently, you lack the understanding of what working from memory works."

I'd think someone aware of that distinction would have avoided the use of the word "officially" in describing that memory and their existence. And it's not like I didn't tell you half a dozen times prior to that that THEY DON'T EXIST. I've spent the last four months combing every square inch of this game, and yet you felt that your memory was superior, even after I had to repeat that they don't exist half a dozen times. And this, you previously called "respect".

 

Not even in the slightest, in fact, I've acknowledged The Chantry had to have some involvement,

Yeah, you acknowledged "some involvement" and then instantaneously and with absolutely no evidence whatsoever minimized the expedition to "a scholar, a sister and two knights". But it's my debating style that's the problem here, yessir, thank you for edumacating me.

 

If you are under the impression that you have actually materially conceded being wrong in any substantial way about even one of the dozen or so completely incorrect claims you have adamantly advanced as inarguably true in any meaningful way - you would be, once again, wrong. Tell me, have you managed to type the word "dragon" in this thread yet? Oh yes, to tell us how Templars eat dragons for breakfast (we coulda just skipped recruiting the elves, dwarves and Redcliffe altogether!), and a reference to the Dragon Age wiki. Acknowledging that people who don't care about something don't repeatedly attempt to kill an enraged dragon, no matter how gobsmackingly uber they are IN THE FUTURE, to get to it? Not. One. Word.

 

"if it was clear you would have an intro with this argument."

 

Sorry! You didn't mention prior to that point that you actually thought that "the Urn is never heard from again". I guess I was supposed to know that you were unaware that you can't finish the game without knowing what happens to the Urn - that it is literally impossible to never hear about the Urn again, and that this was a huge basis for your entire position. I should have led with that. Clearly MY BAD.

 

"because as I stated a million times now it's unclear why Bioware decided to bury such a large partnership and why a holy relic only sends "ripples" and why such a lackluster effort of seemingly one branch was involved or interested in finding."

 

Yes. The Templars assigned to a local chantry smaller than most modern houses cooperating with a local group of knights is a "large partnership" that requires a huge amount of exposition, beyond the "Fallen Templar" quest you want to pretend doesn't exist. And an inevitable epilogue describing what happens to the Urn, dragon fights to get to it, finding it and having large swaths of the population flocking to it, means that the fate of the Urn is "buried" and only sends "ripples". See what I'm saying here? Me informing you of this inevitable epilogue describing what happens to the Urn has not changed your position one iota. You are STILL MAKING THE EXACT SAME ARGUEMENTS THAT YOU WERE WHEN YOU BELIEVED YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT THE URN AGAIN. Without even a slight dial down of the pomposity and self-righteousness. You are *impervious* to evidence.

 

"You continue to point to one-liners, and deeply buried text to spearhead this debate that they made a valiant effort it's just plain not the case."

Holy Mother of God. An inevitable epilogue and multiple dialogues describing the Chantry's obsession with finding the Urn is a deeply buried one liner.

 

Oh, were you under the impression that you've retracted your two dozen claims, complete with multiple insults every step of the way, that the Chantry "doesn't care about the Urn"? Oh, wait, you mewlingly admitted, okay, maybe it's not ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence, now let me twist a mountain of evidence into something trivial, while dialing UP on the insults and pomposity! But hey, I' m an ass because I'm not acknowledging that you acknowledged error! Wow! I just realized - in retrospect that was really big of you! THANKS SO MUCH! \

 

"Nobody, I mean nobody that has ever played Dragon Age when the credits rolled was like "wow the Chantry really made an effort to find that Urn eh?""

 

Oh. My. God.

 

Forget it. Forget I even live. This is so not worth my time. The one and only thing you've been right about.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Qwinn

[Thandal]

<snip>

Forget it. Forget I even live.

 

Wrong personal pronoun in that last sentence. Should have been second person singular. :wink:

[Qwinn]

Actually, before I go, let's ask the class! Hey, everybody! Did any single one of you - all it will take is one! - notice that the Chantry made a big effort to find the Urn at the end of the game? Or did that escape every single person who played this game when they saw the Chantry try and fail on multiple occasions to kill a dragon to get to it?

 

Seriously, this is beyond hilarious. If THAT doesn't qualify as an effort to get to the Urn - what in all the infinity of the known Dragon Age universe POSSIBLY COULD? I'm serious! If that doesn't qualify - hypothetically, -what would-? What in this game universe, called DRAGON AGE, could possibly display a greater effort than multiple failed attempts certainly resulting in dozens if not hundreds of deaths to kill a dragon, and not giving up until the Dragon decides to leave?

 

I am actually laughing my ass off right now. For real. This is so idiotic, I'm going to remember it for a long time. It's almost made this nightmare of an argument worth it. Well. No. Not really.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Qwinn