Qwinn´s Ultimate DAO Fixpack v3 (no longer beta!)

[shades01]

Few notes... I noticed restored line in Flemeth dialogue when you first meet her, nice (is it based on cunning?). Also there is one or more lines dropped in Merrill's dialogue in dalish camp at the beginning, if you could look at that...

[AdenYeshua]

Well, surprising with a large post you managed to not answer some very real questions that are still left lingering...

 

His Her "argument" is that this man wears Templar Armor and the quest is called "A Fallen Templar". I think that's enough evidence on its own but let's go deeper if you want.

 

Actually it's not, since this games inception fans and the creators themselves (including the very exsitence of this patch alone) has attempted to correct, change, fix, or alter already established lore. Sometimes even Bioware itself gets it totally wrong... House Dace comes to mind.

 

The BioWare wiki mentions that Jerrik Dace is the nephew of Lord Anwer Dace which contradicts this codex entry. Furthermore, it mentions that Mandar Dace is the son of Anwer Dace which also contradicts to the established in-game lore. It is not known which one of these versions is correct.

 

In this case, nothing points to him being a Templar in the world of Dragon Age other than the word Templar. As pointed to before he is a knight of Redcliffe and ordered to report to his fellow knight, leading the only logical conclusion with all available info that he is a knight of Redcliffe.

 

David Gaider: Templars take vows upon knighthood, but these do not include a vow of chastity. Templars are nevertheless discouraged from marrying or raising children since it is impractical to live apart from ones' dependents. Such unions are occasionally permitted, provided that the templar's spouse has his or her own means of support, for example, owning land or a title.

 

Oh and here is a few ranks above the plain "Templar" one (actually all known ranks): Knight Corporal, Knight Lieutenant, Knight Captain, Knight Commander, Knight Divine, Knight Vigilant.

 

 

I think you are confusing knighthood of the Templar organization with that of knighthood of an Arl. Sure, you linked to the ranks just fine but that's not what we are talking about here at all. We are talking about conflicting Oaths/Duties roleplay for just a second with me. I as your Arl order you a Templar/Knight hybrid that you are proposing to be somewhere that directly goes against what you were just ordered to do by the Chantry... You swore an oath till death that you will serve Redcliffe and your Arl, but you also swore to the Chantry, one Oath or duty must be broken.

 

Her knights going in a life-saving mission with the templars to cure her husband has nothing to do with her child living in the Castle. If anything, there would be less templars in Redcliffe since some of them departed with the knights.

 

You missed the point, at the time she was hiding the child. It doesn't matter if they weren't "looking" for a kid with demonic powers. Especially since they can sense magic. I'm explaining her motivation to -not- work with the Templars. I recommend you read the wiki or play the game a bit more, it would help you understand the following statement better. It doesn't matter what a "Templar" mission is unlike knighthood from an Arl, Templars can sense magic and corruption. They have taken a sworn oath to hunt mages living outside the chantry and bring them in or kill them. It wouldn't even matter what the Arl ordered. That is why she hid the boy's talents.

 

Now this is your best argument, all the other ones were false or could have been interpreted either way. There are two possible counter-arguments: One is that Ser Henric was knighted by the Arl of Redcliffe (for unknown services rendered) probably before he joined the Templar Order. The other explanation is that the writing team made an error when they wrote his note, misinterpreting his name's title "Ser" as a Knight of Redcliffe.

 

 

Without getting into "that's what you did not me" argument I would like to point out that you admit the "Ser" could have been mistakenly added, by that logic it is more likely that the Templar was added just as well. Except there is more evidence that he is a knight of Redcliffe then anything else. The note reporting duties, his name and title, his orders, and what knight he is from. The only very small bit of evidence that suggests otherwise is he has the word "Templar" in his questline and codex.

 

In your counter argument, you pointed out ranks and what could have been a joint operation between the Church and the Arl, a partnership that is not seen or heard throughout all three games.

Edited June 13, 2017 by AdenYeshua

[Totalbalance]

Downloaded the mod, and will try to do some testing later. I'll probably end up going with mage. Can't wait to see a bug-less game - and to stir up as much love drama as possible :smile:.

[Qwinn]

"Ser" is a common title for Templars. In fact, both of the other Templars in Lothering are referred to as "Ser Bryant" and "Ser Maron". The title "Ser" applies regardless of the correct answer. Edited June 13, 2017 by Qwinn

[mckatsims]

I had to finish one DAO gameplay before installing your mod, Qwinn, but I have just finished the noble origin and so far, so smooth. Having Dog play fetch got me actual items this time around, as opposed to "Dog brought you an item!" and my player got nothing. :D Also, since I am playing a female rogue and intend to romance Alistair, I'm going to install some of those Alistair mods that adds extra scenes, just to see if they work with your mod. Will let you know if anything goes awry.

[Qwinn]

Okay, so on the Fallen Templar, I've enjoyed the back and forth and have come to a conclusion. Barring new information, I'm going to retract the change. Aden, I'll give you a last shot at rebuttal here, but I want to explain where I currently stand.

 

First, a couple of points:

 

• The only very small bit of evidence that suggests otherwise is he has the word "Templar" in his questline and codex.

 

Disagree. The codex entry created by acquiring the knight's note is consistent with him being a secular knight - in fact, that's got all the strongest evidence in your favor. The evidence toward "Templar" is the *quest* entry, not the codex entry. That - and the armor he's wearing.

 

Except there is more evidence that he is a knight of Redcliffe then anything else. The note reporting duties, his name and title, his orders, and what knight he is from.

As pointed out previously, his "name and title" - Ser Henric - do not point away from being a Templar. All Templars bear the title "Ser". All of them. Because every single one is a knight. Check this out, from the Templar Order wiki page:

 

"Prior to taking their vows templar recruits undergo a vigil.^[7] After the vigil, the knight's life is changed."

If anything, NOT being called "Ser" would be almost conclusive proof he wasn't a Templar, heh.

 

Now the question is, how much does "Knight OF REDCLIFFE" signify. If he is a Templar, he's a Templar assigned to the Redcliffe Chantry.

 

Is it implausible that a "Templar Knight of the Redcliffe Chantry" could be referred to in shorthand as a "Knight of Redcliffe"? No. Not really.

 

Is it implausible that the Templars of the Redcliffe Chantry would join the quest for the Urn? I don't think so. As Ser Donall put it: "Every knight of Redcliffe has gone in search of the Urn of Sacred Ashes." Is it plausible that that statement could be considered true if it *didn't* include every knight serving the Redcliffe Chantry? I don't think so. And note that to win the argument, NONE of the knights of the Redcliffe chantry would go on the quest. That simply doesn't jibe with Ser Donall's statement. I am no longer seeing how a Templar knight stationed in the Redcliffe chantry could fail to quality as a "Knight of Redcliffe".

 

Now, let's take the other arguments:

 

Templars would never submit to swearing an oath to two masters! I agree. But Templars serving the Redcliffe Chantry being sent alongside secular knights on a quest would hardly be required to swear an oath.

 

But Templars accepting the possibility of being given an order that could break their oaths would be unprecedented! No. The Templars submit to taking orders from the Warden. Could the Warden, in the endgame, give them an order that violated their vows? Theoretically, sure. That didn't prevent the Templars from being willing to accept his leadership and orders during the quest to defeat the darkspawn. I don't see why they couldn't possibly submit to letting the secular knights be in charge of the Urn expedition in the same way, which would plausibly explain why Ser Henric would report to Ser Donall. The secular knights are far more invested in the Arl's health than the Templars would be anyway, and it would make sense that they would have leadership of it. What would be the argument for the Templars being made leaders of the expedition instead? If that argument *could* be made, it would probably end up hurting the case against Ser Henric plausibly being a Templar more than it would help it.

 

Is this cooperation made more plausible by the fact that the "secular" knights of Redcliffe are every bit as devoted to the Maker as any Templar could ever be? Yes. They may actually be the most overtly religious and devout characters in base DA:O aside from the Sisters.

 

Would cooperation be less plausible if the Redcliffe Templar commander were a tightass by-the-book zealot devoted to nothing beyond the Templar's immediate interests, like Knight Commander Tavish or even Ser Greigoire? Yes. But that's NOT the case. Their commander is Knight Commander Harrith. You know, the most maverick Templar in the game. A Templar who *secretly cooperates with apostates*!!!!!!!! Even if AdenYeshua were correct that cooperation between Templars and secular knights were unprecedented, well, if it only ever happened once in all of Thedas's history, can you think of a Templar more likely to break the rules and go ahead with it than Knight Commander Harrith?

 

Finally, is it implausible that Isolde would support the Templars going on the quest? It's implausible that she *wouldn't*. I agree with Victoria that Isolde, to protect Connor, would LOVE to get every single Templar as far away from Redcliffe as possible. She would be 100% behind *that* idea. The idea that she would seek to prevent it is implausible.

 

So, no. Unfortunately, Aden, the test that you need to meet is that there is a clear inconsistency that requires being resolved. IF you could demonstrate it, then I would fix it the way I already did, because the fix we applied has the virtue that even if we change it to "A Fallen Knight", and Ser Henric is a Templar, *it's still accurate*. But before I can change it at all, I need a compelling reason for why the way it is in vanilla is implausible, or fourth wall breaking, or inconsistent. I'm no longer seeing it I'll give you another shot at making that case before I do anything, but as of now. ... gotta retract it.

 

That said, you can take comfort in that once I do retract it, the existing Fallen Templar "fix" mod should be fully compatible with the rest of the Fixpack

Edited June 13, 2017 by Qwinn

[Qwinn]

"Also, since I am playing a female rogue and intend to romance Alistair, I'm going to install some of those Alistair mods that adds extra scenes, just to see if they work with your mod. Will let you know if anything goes awry."

Â

Not sure which mods you're talking about, but odds are It will all go awry. It will almost certainly end in tears. Sorry.

Â

Well wait. Maybe not. Where does the dialogue in these "new scenes" come from?

 

If they somehow avoid changing alistair_main.dlg, it may work. But if they touch that file, kaboom.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Oh, one additional note on A Fallen Templar: If the Templar Knights of the Redcliffe Chantry refused to go on the Urn quest - why are they not in the Redcliffe Chantry when you get there? Harrith shows up only after Attack at Nightfall. I suppose they could all have died to a man in the attacks before you get there, but... increasingly implausible.

[Thandal]

Hearing nothing to the contrary, am now beginning my:

"Female Dwarf Commoner Rogue with minimal mods beyond QUDAOFPv3OB" playthrough! :yes:

 

Unlike most of my recent runs, I'll carefully listen to ALL the dialogue this time. :tongue:

[Qwinn]

Cool, Thandal, but be aware - I can't think of a single fix that applies just to dwarf commoners. They don't get a quest that I'm aware of. I did the first half of the origin and didn't find a bug, but the second half is untested by me.