Qwinn´s Ultimate DAO Fixpack v3 (no longer beta!)

[dmg22]

Hi,

[i just read your post about the three journal entries, feel free to skip down to the bottom. :smile: ]

I'm going to jump around a bit to answer your points....

Firstly, I concede everything about the timeline. It's been years since I played and my memory is obviously off.

And I'm looking forward to playing it again with your mod. Thanks for putting the time and effort in!


ABOUT Knight Commander Harrith

My position was/is that to reach and keep his current rank (even with his flaws) he would need to be a competent soldier, and that a competent soldier would act as I posted. Expanding on that to address your points...

"You really think his knights going out to help find the Urn would get him in more trouble than his ACTUAL practice of harboring and protecting the apostate mages of the Mage Collective?....."

-Yes. More specifically, it would get him in trouble very quickly, very publicly, and perhaps most importantly, for no profit or gain. And he knows it.

10 year old girl sets 12 year old boys hair on fire....and these things seem to be happening more and more every year...

"SEND FOR THE TEMPLARS!!!!!"
"WHERE ARE THE TEMPLARS!!!!!"
"WHAT!!!!! They were sent away by Knight Commander Harrith?"
"WHAT ARE WE TO DO!!!!!!!!!"
"WHO WILL PROTECT US!!!!!!!"

and

"....I frankly don't think he'd get in any trouble at all for what I'm suggesting....."

There is a universal truth: When things go wrong, people look for someone to blame, and the more they go wrong the more blood they want. And when there's blood in the water the sharks circle.

This is when the large crowd of angry, fearful, and panicked villagers gathers in front of the chantry. For what are they most afraid of? Magic.

After a short interlude, this is where Knight Commander Harrith for violating his most basic oaths, duties, and orders is abandonded by his allies and superiors, turned on by his subordinates and "associates", is striped of his rank and kicked out of the Order. Odds are, everything comes out.

-Or instead, maybe that vengeful apostate shows up and burns down the chantry, and they just execute him.

He'd loose everything.
And he knows it.

"...and the Commander would be just as likely to get in trouble for NOT sending his knights on such an expedition."

Possible. But the trouble would be about "lack of inititive" or "lack of vision". At most he would be taken off the short list for promotion.

"I think I've established the Chantry's overwhelming interest in finding the Urn beyond question,"

I'm assuming that's in a few pages of forum posts that I haven't read. I glanced at them, but that's about all I plan on doing (it all seemed very "involved"). That said, I have no doubt that the chantry would be interested in looking for the Urn and ecstatic about finding it.

I'm repeating myself here, but: The Templars are a military organization. The military has orders, and rules and regulations and systems.

It's possible, maybe even likely, that Harrith would be interested in the Urn, either for faith or profit or glory. But he's a senior officer, he knows how the system works, and he would use it to his and the Orders advantage if he thought there was a real opportunity. He'd keep templars on station to handle day to day duties. He'd notify his superiors of the oportunity, request additional troops, supplies and funds, he'd certainly try for operational control at some point.

The risk/rewards for the scenerio that you are advocating are just so unbalanced.


ABOUT your point on a defenseless chantry/town...

"The Arl's knights felt confident that the remaining non-knight forces remaining in Redcliffe were sufficient to its defense. I find it implausible to insist that the knights from the Chantry side would have HAD to disagree with that, and refuse to join on that basis."

In the eyes of the people and Templars themselves, without the presence of the Templars the village is defenseless against the most feared of things: magic, blood mages, abominations, demons. It's been drilled into them for generations. It's why the Templars exist.

-real world, silly example; There's a fire in Cleveland, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is in danger! Immediately realizing the importance of saving it, the mayor of Chicago sends all of the firefighters in his city to fight the fire. So, what happens if there's a fire in Chicago... Sure, you could set up a temporary emergency volunteer department with police, public works, and the public helping out with garden hoses. And they might be able to save the little old lady in the house on fire in the suburbs. But what happens with a highrise, a skyscraper, an industrial fire, chemical fire, etc, etc. All the specialized knowledge, expertise, experience, and skills to handle that are gone.


ABOUT your point on the greatness of my previous post and how it came "this close" to bringing you to your knees in abject defeat and winning me a trip to Disney World......


"THIS is the good argument. Kudos. It actually addresses, for the very first time in this thread, the actual central core of my argument....."

-Hmmm, capitalization.... I'm not much of a "Chicago Manual of Style" person. I had to Google that :smile: This is the first link that came up: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/209631/do-military-titles-get-capitalized

As far as I can tell, my use of capitalization was wrong (except possibly, the Commander) the rest are used as common nouns and wouldn't be capitalized.

I still read it as knight means knight and "fellow knights" indicates a closer relationship.

But I'll defer to anyone who has expertise/knowledge on the relevance of this subject.


ABOUT "So many of my fellow *officers* have..."

If they pulled out the entire company of Templars at Redcliff to support this quest, that interpretation would be factually incorrect and wouldn't be used in that context by a templar.

Rank in the templars:

Knight-Vigilant
Knight-Divine
Knight-Commander
Knight-Captain
Knight-Lieutenant
Knight-Corporal
Templar

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Templar_Order

The odds of there being no templars of enlisted rank (Templar) is somewhere around zero, because then there would be no one to shine the armour and fetch the coffee. Knight Commander Harrith especially would not allow that to happen. Neither would the Order. Basic military organization and tactics are pretty universal. Real world the ratio of enlisted to officers is about 3:1 to 10:1 in the US, and (usually) the further back in history you go the higher the ratio.

As an aside, I'd bet money that despite the title the Knight-Corporal there is considered enlisted, not just by the order, but by the Arl's knights and the regular army.


Additionally, if the line is interpreted as writen

"So many of my fellow knights have..."

If Ser Henric *were* a Templar and if they pulled out the entire company of templars at Redcliff to support this quest, that usage would still be factually incorrect, for the reasons given above. And Ser Henric *as a templar* would not disrespect the contributions of the enlisted members of his own order by using it.


ABOUT "...(and remember, in defense of the in game content, I only need to prove plausible, not likely or necessary)..."

I was reading through the discussions and this issue caught my eye, because I remembered it from years ago when I played the game. It just didn't make sense the way it was. And reading thru all the stuff to find things for these posts it still doesn't. IMO, something, one way or the other, needs to change. Maybe that's just me.

Cheers


[if I offered you a single place where Bioware uses "Templar" and "knight" *interchangeably*, would that advance my argument?".........."This is evidence that the whoever wrote this actual quest deliberately considered the terms interchangeable, which is essentially the entire basis of my argument."

-If the ranks for the Templar Order listed here are accurate:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Templar_Order

And I understand your arguement correctly, Then no because they are not interchangeable.

While every knight in the Order is a templar,
every templar in the Order is not a knight.

But I have no idea what the source for that information is or how canonical it may be.]

[dmg22]

Aden, let's move on please.

 

This fixpack provides more than a thousand fixes, it is extremely unproductive for the scope of this mod if we continue to focus our energy and time into a single and minor one.

 

I got the impression that the big kahuna was at a point in his process where he was looking for a diversion from bland documentation tasks, but I wouldn't want to slow things down.

 

I won't sue for Breach of Promise :smile:

[Pinjanna]

I was reading through the discussions and this issue caught my eye, because I remembered it from years ago when I played the game. It just didn't make sense the way it was. And reading thru all the stuff to find things for these posts it still doesn't. IMO, something, one way or the other, needs to change. Maybe that's just me.

 

Those could have been my words exactly.

 

@Qwinn: I think using "Templar" and "knight" interchangeably is actually the biggest problem this quest has. I'd suggest fixing that inconstancy. (And yes, I'd say that's a fix rather than a tweak. It's not all that different from fixing a typo or a missing word. It doesn't change the meaning of the sentence, just clarifies it.)

Edited June 16, 2017 by Pinjanna

[AdenYeshua]

Needless to say here is something helpful, it's removed from the patch, remove it kindly from the non-compatible fixes on the main page...

 

@dmg22 his argument was not that "was it a dumb order" or "he's going to be hanged for this" it was more "is it possible" and unfortunately yes, it's very stupid, but it's indeed possible. We might not like it, we dig into the deeper meaning of things, but there is a certain bar to is to be respected.

 

We are arguing two very different ideologies, we are arguing the pure lunacy of such a ridiculous order, he is arguing is it possible with a sprinkle here and there of lore to back him up. In some weird sense, both are correct, and ironically wrong at the same time.ÃÂ

 

A "fix" is whatever it is the Author intends to be, as anything found in the game is technically (bugs and all) the lore. Anything else, even obvious mistakes are in-fact part of the lore as well. All people and every Author on here has drawn their own line as to what is a fix and what is not. Sure there are programmer notes but who's to say those are even correct, those are taken as guides but even those might get the intent of the original totally wrong.

 

Qwinn's bar made very clear is to not tweak, or read to deep into things. Overall it's; Is it possible? or isn't it? No matter how absurd, how game breaking. For instance, if there was a detailed note saying the Arl of Redcliffe ordered ALL the Knights of Ferelden to look for the Ash's even the servants and shopkeepers not even under his command, he would incorporate that. No joke, it's stupid and completely absurd but that's what it says on one note on a dead NPC in a cut room.

 

It sounds like I'm bashing him but I'm not, that's the bar. If it says it and that's the original intent then fix it. Thank God or the Maker it's just restricted to ordering everybody in Redcliffe or our game would be in a whole lot of trouble. lol

 

Also since -nobody- reads their PMs on this site I will debate only you dmg, Qwinn, this next part is not for you. I acknowledge your retraction, heard your reasons, and I stand that debate (at least with me is probably over) that said...

 

~~

@Dmg22 (again) I know... there is no f***ing way he made that order at all. Not only that typically there is always someone looking for advancement if he ordered ALL of the knights to look for an object of unknown location or any hint of where to find it on a never ending quest he's be hanged by the nearest Templar looking for a promotion. Not to mention the strategy seemingly being it, no other knight, no protection, no bodyguards, just plain go out by yourself and find it. lol

 

They actually violate their oath even listening to such a command. Imagine the Arlessa standing in the dining hall addressing all the knights even the Templars with the commander:

 

"you all should leave now by yourselves and report to my guards, you will leave us all unguarded and open to any attack of any nature, because we are safe now, the commanders knights as well, you will leave the mother unprotected and hunt for the Urn that we used to know the location too but a big Dragon and a guy told us it's not there anymore, so search wherever. Brother Genativi you will be funded not enough to pay for guards but we will pay you something I think. Oh and don't get lost we probably won't go looking for you the rest of you head out, and by the way, could you drop off my resume around places because by the time you leave I'm likely fired"

 

Realistically he and she doesn't have that authority, a Knight would cite his vow, lop off his head, and they go back to eating. The next commander announced right then and there.

 

Can you imagine the fallout? You burning bodies reporting to your superiors why you sent EVERY Knight out on an Easter egg hunt? lol Guy would be lucky to scrub toilets of Elves after that. But we live in a generation of everybody gets a trophy, where somebody's intentions were good and that's all that matters.

 

The consequences and repercussions of this action are just too great like you said an angry Mage, hell even another human lord looking to pick his bones gets word that Redcliffe has been left utterly defenseless. The questions just keep coming.

Edited June 15, 2017 by AdenYeshua

[Qwinn]

At work, can't link, but dgm22, I established earlier that even the lowest rank of Templar is considered a knight. Look at the Templar Order wiki page and search for "recruit". It's something like "Templar recruits undergo a vigil, and when it is over, the knight's life is changed forever." This isn't the only source, but I think it should suffice.

 

And one more point. You guys keep talking about how many questions are left open by Henric being a Templar and the templars joining the search. I submit the fix you want creates even more and bigger questions. Why? Because it makes Knight Commander Harrith a compltely inexplicable anomaly. He single handedly proves the existence of the Redcliffe Templars... and he would remain the ONLY proof or mention anywhere of the Redcliffe Templars. Take away Henric as a Templar and knights on the Search, you're left with even more questions: where were the Redcliffe Templars? If they all die in the initial attacks (which according to Aden is unpossible because it makes them look even weaker than the militia), why does no one mention them? Why doesn't Perth list them as part of the defense of Redcliffe that they left behind? If all other templars died, without comment from anyone, why wasn't at least Harrith himself helping defend the village?

 

Henric answers all of these questions - the templars were on the search.

 

You're not eliminating questions. You're eliminating the answer to even more questions. And if the vanilla game didn't include Henric, you'd be asking me to get rid of or change Harrith's title because his existence and title would be inexplicable and a complete anomaly - there's no other evidence that the Redcliife Chantry *had* any templars, and the idea that they wouldn't be there to help the village or die without mention, not even from Harrith hinself, is ludicrous! Fix it, Qwinn! And you know what? I would have agreed.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Btw, Sialivi, I saw your post and it is greatly appreciated. Don't worry, it didn't get buried. I'll review it when I get a chance.

[Bronzeness]

I think there's evidence on both sides re: the knight/templar question, but a lot of it seems to hinge on the difference between The Templars and The Chantry, as in, the international organization based in Orlais, and the templars that happen to be stationed in your local chantry. So coming at it from a larger lore perspective...

 

I mean, yes, the Chantry is vaguely interested in the Urn of Sacred Ashes to begin with. I'd say "vaguely" because as of the beginning of the game, no one's really sure that it exists. Genitivi is the only person who really knows anything about it (aside from the cultists) and he doesn't exactly have overwhelming evidence prior to getting kidnapped. The Chantry is willing to fund him because he's obviously a prolific writer and probably makes them a good bit of money. They're willing to indulge him looking into something probably fake because either a), he's wrong, writes a bestselling book about his findings, and everything is fine or b) he's right, they recover a priceless relic, and everything is extra awesome. But as far as we know, it's just him and his assistant going through old trade records relating to the Frostbacks and then taking a road trip across Ferelden. Not exactly a multi-million dollar research venture.

 

Then the Hero of Ferelden comes in, finds it, and cures a well-known noble of Magic Death Disease, etc,, etc. So now the urn is connected to possibly the most famous person alive, and we have a respectable scholar backing up the story. It would be insane for the Chantry NOT to throw all its resources into recovering the thing. So yes, now we get Leliana being sent on a special mission, and waves of templars getting thrown at a dragon, and more funding for Genitivi. So sure, by the end, the chantry is VERY interested, which is how we end up with the temple being so important 10 years down the line in Inquisition. But none of that has much to do with what's going on in Redcliffe when the Warden first gets there. At that point, it's just a town in chaos because of a zombie invasion, which nobody saw coming.

 

No one knew Connor was a mage, or that his new tutor was secretly an unstable apostate-turned-assassin, or that his father's sickness would lead to Connor being possessed, or that the nearby circle would quite suddenly be overrun by demons and need all hands on deck. Lots of bad things happened to happen at the same time, and literally no one was expecting it. Not Loghain, not Jowan, not the darkspawn, not even Connor's desire demon. I think you could absolutely challenge Harrith's judgement in general, but even in the best of cases this situation would have been a mess. Having Harrith miscalculate just how necessary a strong templar presence in Redcliffe would be isn't really contradicting anything we see in-game. He's got a bunch of guys who aren't doing much of anything. Their commanding officer is apparently not too interested in apostate hunting, and the town already has a military presence with the Redcliffe knights and castle soldiers. If the opportunity arises to do the arlessa a favor and give the templars a nice holy mission, why not do that?

 

So the real question is, are local templars allowed to do stuff like go on missions to find relics to cure magically poisoned arls? Like, is that a thing you need approval from Val Royeaux to even consider doing, or can your local head templar send people off on chantry-related quests if there's not much else going on? I'd argue sure, why not. It's not the most useful thing they could be doing. Redcliffe doesn't need Eamon all that badly. He's an older guy, we've got Teagan to hold down the fort until Connor comes of age, and the town seems to be doing fine under the mayor's leadership. If Eamon dies, it's not a huge deal. It may very well shake things up politically, but it's not a crisis that really warrants calling in the templars. They don't need to interfere, but helping seems like a harmless way to give them a project that'll look good to the locals and the nobility. As for cooperating with the Redcliffe knights, I'm sure they were doing that already. On a practical, day-to-day basis, the two groups are probably doing a lot of the same things. Asking them to work together isn't strictly in line with the idea of the templars as neutral religious peacekeepers, but it's not crazy. And if you're sending a few dozen knights out all over the country, you're gonna need a system for them to keep in contact with one another. So Ser Donall is in Lothering collecting information, because Lothering is a convenient central location not far from Redcliffe. Makes sense to me.

 

The one thing that absolutely doesn't make sense is Harrith being a Knight-Commander. Knight-Commander seems in all other instances to be a rank reserved for the highest-ranking templar associated with a particular Circle. I can buy Tavish being one, since Denerim used to have a Circle and it's a capital city with presumably the largest chantry in Ferelden, but why would Redcliffe need a Knight-Commander when Kinloch Hold is right there and has its own? Harrith should be a Knight-Captain at best.

[AdenYeshua]

Another question; how does he supply these folks with Lyrium? Did he give them an advanced supply? Is he allowed to even do that? How did he expect to supply them throughout the loner mission? Why did the guy showing up to deliver the goods not blow him in that his entire command is gone?

[Qwinn]

Bronzeness: I think you made an excellent analysis and I agree with almost all of it. I only have one quibble, and I wouldn't even mention it if it weren't important to my next post:

 

"I mean, yes, the Chantry is vaguely interested in the Urn of Sacred Ashes to begin with. I'd say "vaguely" because as of the beginning of the game, no one's really sure that it exists."

 

I disagree with this. The Chantry's caring and interest in the Urn is *extreme* at all times... the only thing that changes between the beginning and the end of the game (where they repeatedly throw themselves at a dragon for it) is that more information about where it is comes to light. It's not like any other new information about the Urn is revealed, just the potential of actually finding it increased. It's the holiest relic in their religion, and I don't think saying "vaguely interested in the Urn of Sacred Ashes" can ever be a true statement. But lacking even the first clue of where to start, there simply wasn't any direction in which to aim their resources in finding it. HOWEVER, if some *other* group, like the arl's knights, decides they're going to engage in a mass hunt for it, of *course* the Chantry is going to want to be a part of it. If no one's looking for it, there isn't much risk of the Chantry not being there when it's found. But on the off chance that the Urn did exist, and the arl's knights were successful, there's absolutely no way they'd risk none of their number being there for the discovery.

 

As I said, this is important to my next post, which should be titled "How Not To Spectacularly Undermine Your Own Arguments On The Internet, And Piss Qwinn Off In The Process".

Edited June 15, 2017 by Qwinn

[Pinjanna]

Qwinn, how important are the changes you've made to core_en-us.tlk? There's a compatibility issue with "More Detailed Tooltips" and I'd prefer not to give that up. Do I actually need to manually migrate all the changes you've made?