Female plate armor with or without breast cups.

[Wolbryne]

This thread is about

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5609/img2253sv.jpg

VS

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/3476/img22534.jpg

 

the thread is NOT about

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israel_women_rights.jpg

 

now please take the rights debate somewhere else and don't derail this topic.

[Seviche]

This thread is about

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5609/img2253sv.jpg

VS

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/3476/img22534.jpg

 

the thread is NOT about

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israel_women_rights.jpg

 

now please take the rights debate somewhere else and don't derail this topic.

You get a kudos for that.

 

You go to all the trouble to ask a military historian about facts vs. fetish and the political-minded douchebags that infest the internet can't appreciate it. People, can you get off your high-horse for five minutes already? Sheesh.

 

THIS IS A COOL FRIKKIN' POST. The thread comments, not so much. :wallbash:

 

Wolbryne, thanks for this. I enjoyed reading it. :thumbsup:

[Wolbryne]

You get a kudos for that.

 

You go to all the trouble to ask a military historian about facts vs. fetish and the political-minded douchebags that infest the internet can't appreciate it. People, can you get off your high-horse for five minutes already? Sheesh.

 

THIS IS A COOL FRIKKIN' POST. The thread comments, not so much. :wallbash:

 

Wolbryne, thanks for this. I enjoyed reading it. :thumbsup:

 

 

thanks man, appreciated :)

btw, love your avatar. I miss babylon 5 :'(

[Lachdonin]

Funny though those pictures are, their terribly innacurate.

 

It's also not appropriate to ask a military historian about whats historically accurate for a game set in a different universe.

 

As it stands, having women as reguar combatants has only been normal in the western world for about 60 years. Prior to that, the last time women fought with any degree of regularity was during Europes bronze age, during which 'armour' barely ammounted to a heavy hide jacket. We are now, after 60 years, starting to design armuors specificly for women, which accomidate their differening body types and, by all accounts, are both more comfortable for women and offer greater protection.

 

In the TES universe, women have been fighting for centuries, if not millennia. They should have gone through a similar shift before the Septim Empire was even founded, and the modified types of armour would be common place by this point.

 

Historical accuracy in a fantasy game is rubbish compared to contextual accuracy.

[Khorak]

It's also not appropriate to ask a military historian about whats historically accurate for a game set in a different universe.

 

It is when that universe is using the same physics, the same human bodytype, creates armour in exactly the same way, and basically has all the exact same considerations for designing and creating armour as we did in history. History which, anyone should be able to note in hopefully at least under a second, is what fantasy takes from.

 

As it stands, having women as reguar combatants has only been normal in the western world for about 60 years. Prior to that, the last time women fought with any degree of regularity was during Europes bronze age, during which 'armour' barely ammounted to a heavy hide jacket. We are now, after 60 years, starting to design armuors specificly for women, which accomidate their differening body types and, by all accounts, are both more comfortable for women and offer greater protection.

 

This argument is meaningless, since no armour made for women today includes cartoon boobs crafted into them. In fact, it is readily apparent that you're parroting something you heard and don't know the reality; either now or in the past. Actual attempts to create female body armour in the modern day, which is exclusively bullet/stab proof vests and thus has absolutely no bearing on this discussion anyway, merely give the chest area an outward curve to make a bit more space. Even this is not necessary for most women, who aren't porn stars. Every single woman in the British police force wears the same kind of bullet proof and stab proof vests as the men do. It is certainly the same in the US. They can do this because the most pleasant attribute of breasts, their soft squishiness, also means that strangely enough they don't require absurd, perfectly tailored boob cups to place them within, and they're not, as it turns out when leaving the house, the size of your head.

 

And of course, the reason modern day armour has absolutely no bearing whatsoever upon rigid ancient armours is that it doesn't have vast amounts of padding underneath it, which is also the singular reason why any modern armour might need to have a noticeable curve for women. We have to go back to the childishly wished-for but entirely untrue idea that all women have breasts like a pair of prize winning watermelons. They don't. By the time you've applied the requisite layers of padded coats and supplementary chainmail, you have completely destroyed such features as breasts as a consideration. There is already a massive amount of space under any rigid armour to accomodate piles of padding, into which breasts will disappear.

 

In the TES universe, women have been fighting for centuries, if not millennia. They should have gone through a similar shift before the Septim Empire was even founded, and the modified types of armour would be common place by this point.

 

And another point is that saying things like this underlines the level of ignorance being dealt with. When it comes to designing effective rigid armours for women, their breasts are not the major concern. No modification is required for them unless the woman in question has spent her life battling serious boob-related back problems. Designing for women carries more subtle issues in the way of tailoring to such things as their hips (which may not even require accomodating, depending on the woman), you know, the things about a female body that are skeletal, unchangeable, and affect how they move and subsequently how armour has to interact with them. Not just their tits.

 

Historical accuracy in a fantasy game is rubbish compared to contextual accuracy.

 

You got historical accuracy wrong, contextual accuracy wrong....we can probably say you got biological accuracy somewhat wrong as well, and frankly, your last line here is wrong as well.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Khorak

[Lachdonin]

Khorak, you really have a high oppinion of yourself, don't you?

 

First, i have served. As such, i have worn body armour, and have had several female colleagues who have worn both the standard uni-sex as well as the specialised female armour. They have stated, without a doubt, that the properly fitted female armour is superior in every way. Yes, it is in context to the modern dynamic of warfare, but the same developmental paradigm exists.

 

Second, my arguement is not in support of armour even approaching the crappy photo-shop we see above. I even said as much. Plate armour requies specialised fitting for an individual, and the best armours are in fact close, almost form fitting. We don't have to deal with this fact these days because when we wear plate armour we aren't expecting it to save out lives. As such, the fit isn't as important as it once was.

 

Massive breast cups are, i agree, absurd, and i think that even from an asthetic perpsective they look like crap. Proper fitting and accomidation is an important component of armour design.The standard, bowed design of a breastplate may indeed be avle to accomidate breats of rather ample size, but it creates a pocket below which compromises the integrety of the armour its self. As such, a male breastplate, while functional, is not optimal. Considering in the TES universe women have been fighting for a long period of time, you would expect that this would be taken into consideration.

 

Next, i did not at any point say the hips were not a consideration. I don't even know where you got that. Modern female armours have an increased tapering of the sides to acoomidate the more triangular shape of the female torso, with more prnounced flares at the hip than you'd see in male. Likewise, you would have to do the same on a womans armour. That's not part of the arguement however, as the question is the presence of what amounts to a bra cup. As i have already said, if the standard bowed style is use, it creates a pocket below the breats which diminishes the overal integrety of the armour due to a lack of support. This has two solutions. Additional padding to fill the void (As was done with Joan'de Arc's armour) or a flatter chest. The flattening of the chest then causes compression that even flat-chested women would find uncomfortable. The solution to this is a change in the upper curvature, and the creation of a cup.

 

Finally, i have not gotten the historical accuracy wrong. Unless, of course, you have some insight that has been kept from the historical community, since i am in fact agreeing that the historical points raised in the first post. I am also not wrong in the contextual points, though without calling an armourer and an engineer in here i fail to see any other way of convincing you of the information.

 

At best, we would see what aproximates a B cup, but it is a cup size none the less.

 

And all of this is completely besides the asthetic varriable.

[JimboUK]

It's a fantasy game set in a fantasy world, there is no right or wrong.

[Sideslasher]

Either way you look at it the " debate " over this was stupid to begin with. Its fantasy not reality. you want reality turn the computer off and step outside, you want fantasy play Skyrim. Either way STFU and play or GTFO. now if you will excuse me i am going to go play skyrim with my breast cupped armor.......better yet nvm imma play through naked!! ^_^

[Nekrafilia]

Remove the breast cups.

 

Go commando :thumbsup:

[Vindekarr]

there were arguments about that? O.O the age of plate armor was dominated by males...women were 2nd, 3rd class citizens. they didn't fight, were told not to fight, and only in rare verging on unique instance did they fight. a little history should have stuffed any argument before it started. and if plate had been made for women, it would have done it as simply as possible. larger chest but no individual cups. basically male versions beaten out in the chest to provide a bit more room.

 

In europe maybe, plenty of women of the Samurai class fought.