The Rights of Native Americans and First Nations

[Chesto]

Also, Chesto, it is easy to view alternative cultures through rose-coloured spectacles and believe we wish to see them preserved. In reality those of us with an 'easy' life in the west are very selective about which parts may be preserved. Traditions as old as the hills whether stamped out like human sacrifice among the Maya or (mostly) Sutee in India or still continuing such as female circumcision, arranged marriages etc. etc. are considered unacceptable. Even those groups we are talking about here (native Americans) do not wish to go back 400 years and give up everything. Some is seen as positive progress.

 

Even this much travelled individual, who in some ways laments the increasing evidence of international urban cloning, the ubiquity of jeans, television and packaged food, is aware that the alternatives 'quaint'. 'unique' and 'picturesque' often mean poor, insanitary and malnourished. Deciding what can and should be preserved is not relevant to this thread but like the stereotyping issue referred to above it is not a simple issue.

 

Nothing I have contributed so far would contradict the image of me as an old 'Good old Indian Ways' armchair wannabe, so I wont take offence at the ' rose coloured specs' allusion. And having read enough of your posts, I don't suspect that any offence was intended.

I could bore you with tales from the many years, off and on, I have spent living and working in the Canadian west and north but.... Suffice to say I've seen what a 'modern' Canadian Native has had to cope with, at relatively close hand, over the last 40+years. Can't talk about religion here, so I'll just say that I, a confirmed secularist, respect their belief systems.

 

As you mentioned, there are many past and present activities that different cultures, our own included, have engaged, and do engage in, which we find abhorent . And of course there is no point in talking about Native Americans going back 400years. They couldn't even if they wanted to. The ecosystems that supported their 'old' way of life has, for the most part, disappeared. But, as I've already alluded to, there is more to be preserved, and cherished, than the external trappings. Only a living, viable People can do that. For themselves, and the rest of us.

[Chesto]

Jhaerlyn- I was speaking, mainly, about the Native Americans ( generic). I don't really understand which other 'groups' you may think I'm referring to.

I suppose the generalist tactics I espouse could be applied to any minority group that had a similar long history of traditions behind it, though I can not think of any that fit the bill other than certain reclusive religious sects. Only those more knowledgeable than I ( queue here! ) about First Peoples could say with any degree of certainty whether they, themselves, consider they are part of a larger homogeneous grouping, and not just a mixture of tribal groups who have been thrown together by their common treatment. Similar, in fact, to the way that blacks in America came together from their own tribal and ethnic backgrounds to create black consciousness and all that has come from that.

 

 

Chesto, you misunderstood me ... i'm sorry ..I should use quotes when refering to what people say ... :( when I said "groups" I was referring to this statement:

My 'study' of history shows that groups which stay together to maintain their traditions survive in the face of all the crap that the 'majority' around them throws at them

 

I wanted to know what groups had stuck together to maintain their traditions ... so I could better understand how to look at the issue and how to understand your point.

 

Appreciate your close reading of my posts, Jhaerlyn. If you don't mind, I wont specify which groups I had in mind. I don't want to broaden out this thread anymore than it is already.

[vampirefaeries]

The funny thing about that history that is taught in our schools... primary and secondary ... is that its mostly inaccurate. For example, Batlham mentioned the trading of metal 'trinkets' for pelts and how the White man Ripped off the indian over and over ...

 

well that's not actually accurate. For the indian, getting those pelts was easy and they couldn't understand why these weak white people couldn't just get the furs themselves. And those hatchets and things were of Great value to the indians because they didn't have such things and they were able to make very useful things with them. ... things that mostly ended up helping them hunt more beaver.

 

Actually that was me.......

 

But think about it for a sec. What if the Native tribes had any idea about how much these items were worth back in Europe? Or if they had the slightest clue as to the value of beaver belts on the European Market?

 

If the Natives were capable of selling their beaver pelts and buying their metal trinkets on the European market instead of trading them, they could've saved themselves alot of beaver pelts.

 

(It should be noted that not only beaver pelts, but the furs of other animals, including bears, minxes, wolves, deer and wolverines were in high demand, beaver was just the most pricey)

1. I did not say anything about trinkets.

2. They did know how much fur was worth..since they traded it heavy with the white men.

 

However, they got screwed over because of land. Farmers and ranchers wanted more land. so..either kill the natives living on it...or move them. they did both.

The funny thing about the Cherokee was they had a higher literacy rate than any other population in the USA. (white or otherwise) They tried to integrate into white culture...In fact most were fairly white looking.

They were still taking up room and were forced marched hundreds of miles into a reservation.

Why were they? Because, of the prejudice against them. It still stands today in some areas. I think its worse in Canada. I have not met a Canadian that had anything nice to say about Native tribes.

 

Funny story. My step mother is from Canada. When she heard that my mother side was native she didn't have nice things to say about it.

The FIRST time she met my sister...she saw a picture of my mother. she then said "Well she doesn't looks like damn Indian." Well my sister didn't take that real well.

 

My moms family had to deal with a fear of people finding out they were native. Men in sheets could had tried to drag the "Praire niggers" all out and hang them.

 

Most of the prejudice against Natives in the USA is gone. You can sometimes see it around the reservations though.

 

I'm sorry Baltham, but most of the Prejudice against Native Americans in the US is not gone. I am from Arizona. I lived in Phoenix, Tucson & Flagstaff for about 20 years. I went to school, lived and worked in Flagstaff for 5 of those years. Flagstaff is just South of the Navajo Reservation. I have seen such discrimination as you would not believe!!. The Natives are so poorly treated, (yes thats around the Res) it's just disgusting. But I have seen it all over the state and this country.

 

The only reason you see it more around the Reservation is because that's where the larger populations of Natives live. Put a group somewhere else and the discrimination begins. There are several Reservations in Arizona and I'm sure that makes a difference, but believe me it is not almost gone from the US, sad as that is to say.

 

Unfortunately, all too soon we will lose out Racial Diversity. In another 100 years we (in the US) won't have to worry about it much anymore. We are all becoming so racially integrated that people will come to realize that we are all the same race anyway, The Human Race. But then people will just find something else to be hateful about and discrimnate against. It's our cultural ideas and beliefs that we need to keep alive.

[vampirefaeries]

@ rob: Yes, the natives have lost almost all their heritage, but maybe (I'm sorry if this sounds offensive; it's not meant to be) maybe, it's time to move on? Just look elsewhere, Italy for example. They're changed their culture several times over the course of history. Things change. Maybe it's time the natives move on and join, and add to, American culture. In fact, there's another example. America is the 'daughter' of England, yet, now, the two countries are different in many ways. America has her own culture now. It'll, of course, be a lengthy procedure, but I think the natives should move on. I'm not suggesting they forget their past; I'm suggesting they stop holding onto it so tightly and just let it be.

Again, I'm sorry if this offends you in any way; race is potentially the hottest topic.

I'm not at all offended - like I said, I appreciate what you have to say. But you're still not seeing that it just isn't that simple. We simply cannot, like I pointed out before, "forgive and forget". But don't worry - I wouldn't expect you to understand the ramifications of our situation.

 

I would really hate to see the Natives of this country "Integrate". The different Nations have so much to offer. Their oral history and folklore alone has some of the most interesting ideas. I wonder how many people realize that the Native American peoples of this land were the ones that helped our forefathers write our own constitution? More people should read up on "Native American History" rather than "US History". They would be pleasantly surprized at what Natives really do have to offer.

 

Yes forgive, but never forget. It's not about moving on or forward, it's all about growth. Keep the basis of who and what you are as a people and add to it. (With what little has been left to you). It's up to people like you Rob, who are striving to keep your Peoples ideas , beliefs and culture alive. You're doing a damn good job of it here. By voicing your ideas and opinions, bringing others into it and trying to educate them about the situtation is a great way to start. Build from that, but do not give in. I'm giving you a Kudos for your efforts. :thumbsup:

[Jhaerlyn]

Thank you VAMP!

 

I shoudln't be responding ..or here at all but I was cruising while munching on macaroni ...and just had to say that Vampirefaeries brings up the CORE problem that I was trying to highlight in my awkward and unwieldily wordy way ... :( I guess I wasnt thinking clearly enough to word it right ..but basically ... its those two things he mentioned:

 

1. Racism is Rampant and growing in this country

2. Everyone believes the opposite of number 1.

 

-- and I blame our Americanization Socialization Studies classes from k through 12th grade. They all teach a narration of our history as a journy toward the Perfect Democratic Nation that all other Nations should aspire to be, and all children should look on with awe and respect, never doubting that she is always getting better. ... And its this very type of tripe that we cram down our kids that is leading to so many of our youth becoming so cynical (sp?) usually about our country ... or are so ignorant of the realities ....

 

 

Obama lost Ohio to Clinton ... why? well, my personal experience with many people in ohio ...both personal and annectdotal has been that ...most of that state is VERY racist... People who in the late 80's would still put a burning cross a new neighbors lawn to let them know they are not welcome cause they are black ... would definitely prefer a white woman as president ... than a Black Man. I don't care what people might say in a poll.

[ResidentWeevil2077]

To me Jhaerlyn, what is happening in both out great nations (USA + Canada) is that the gov't is still trying to control what people think - through the education system. I know this is only a conspiracy theory (and believe me when I say this, I have A LOT of conspiracy theories), but I'm guessing this is probably more true than any other zany idea I've come up with so far :wacho:

[kungfubellydancer]

Here's something very interesting you might want to see. A documentary about the Palestinian population living in Navajo reservations, and how peaceful it is.

 

Part 1:

Part 2:

 

Watch other videos from the host. You might learn something, since American media doesn't want us to see this stuff!

 

http://youtube.com/user/AlJazeeraEnglish

 

If you guys are interested in learning the Truth about what goes on outside your city, order the AlJezeera English channel, and there's also a channel from BBC (can't remember what its called) that is very similar. I think it came out recently.

[kungfubellydancer]

Here's a link to a video about Indian voting rights in America, from the AlJazeera English channel.

 

Part 1:

 

I'm still watching this, and I guess there's a Part 2 but you'll have to find it.

 

Edit: Like I said I didn't watch the whole thing, its not about voting rights, just about the general life of these indians and what they think about the US government.

[Jhaerlyn]

its funny ..but its not necessarily a conspiracy (govt control of our thinking through education) at least not in a classic sense ...

 

if you look at the book adoption process in the US you'll see that it'd be nearly impossible for the "govt" to control what goes in text books ... but mostly they don't have to .... I can't speak for canada, but in the US what you basically have going are two things:

 

1) People what children to look up to the people where were instrumental in forming it, and so, become good Citizens.

2) People what their children feeling good about their country and themselves

 

 

THe problems:

 

#1 -- No one has taken any empirical data to find out what is the best way to train children to be good citizens and be concerned about their country ... BUT -- creating heros out of ordinary men in our history doesn't seem to be working, and yet Textbook publishers, parents and Teachers haven't seemed to be cued in on that ...

 

My favorite example of how to present a heroic figure in a way that people will actually look up to them and learn from their example, its the BIble ( this is not a religious comment ...but looking at it as historical information) ... people like King David are presented not just with thier strengths, but their weeknesses ... and so we get to see how a Very Godly manstubbles and basically commits murder and abuse of authority, over lust. If you look at G. Washington ... you have this alabaster statue .... not a human being that a teenager could identify with. ... and worse, mythic stories about these people make them less, not more attractive, and yet teachers STILL tell kids the stupid lie about Georgie washington and the cherry tree and his inability to lie to his dad. .... or even the betsy ross flag making lie ... all concoctions created with the intent to tell the kids See Great people founded us, therefore we are great .... and its crap. Because what it actually teaches is that, our past is much better than our future, because NONE of the people in office now can even come close to being like Washington ... and you, teen student, aren't even close!

 

 

#2-- these people who are most concerned about this are White ... and so the students who end up being taught to feel good about themselves and their history ..are the white kids...

 

and it shows up in poll after poll of highschool kids .... there is A HUGE gap between white students and other ethnic groups when students are asked what is your least favorite subject .... Whites over and over again like history class much more than all other ethnic groups combined! (in the US)

 

Now, i'm an exception ... my family is Cuban but I grew up here ... and I loved History class ... but that had more to do with the fact that because of my upbringing I always identified with white people. My family has never considered itself anything but white. I didn't really see my self as a different ethnic group until we had to fill out standardized test forms and later stuff for college and I was told to put hispanic :) I would usually have just put White. It has nothing to do with being brown ;)

 

now i'm older and learned more ... but I see that my enjoyment of History as opposed to many of my fellow students, most of whom were Tex-Mex and had inheritted "history" of how things are between whites and 'others' ... had to do with me identifying with the 'winners' and not the losers.

 

 

but textbooks aren't written by government agencies .... and mostly, what dictates what goes into textbooks is public opinion ... or rather, the opinion of the loudest voices when textbook adoptions come in .... publishers want to sell the books so they make them as bland as possible to offend the least amount of people ...at least ...offend the least the loud people who are likely to protest. ... most ethnic groups already feel left out of the process, so they don't even try to address the issue. Some text books are changing, but not in the way that text books should.... History books should be written the same way College level history books are .... written by historians .... but school history books aren't usually ...

 

anyway.. gotta go ... :D i'm going to try and look at the youtube video ...

[Chesto]

History does tend to get written by the victors. And in the last two+ hundred years, the victors, up until Vietnam and, perhaps now Iraq, and, yet again Afghanistan... have been white, in world political history. That may be changing, as we speak.

A relatively new nation like the US of A has to create its own mythology, especially when it has chucked out an Imperial power like Britain. And especially when a minute before the British were chucked out, officially, the Americans WERE British, culturally.

An old country like Britain doesn't need to create myths. It is just assumed to have them. Of course, we do create myths, like Dunkirk, and the Battle of Britain, because we want to, and because it suits the pols. It's always nicer to appear to be the 'little guy' fighting, and winning, or losing gloriously, against almost insurrmountable odds. We're so blase about myths that we don't even have a written constitution. Though changes in our cultural demographic may require a BIG rethink on this tradition.

A hundred years ago, on this thread, I talked about the need for Native... to wrap themselves in their cultural traditions. Native mythology is already in place. It just has to be applied in a modern context, so that the people who share those cultural traditions can grow strong within, and because of , them. Separate development? Ok. Assimilation hasn't really worked, or so it seems to me.