[WIP] Weapon Addition and Replacement Suite (WARS)

[geala]

Most of the planned features sound good to me, although I don't want new or better weapons in my game especially (I have a "primitive" setting, mostly crossbows, pipe guns, double-barrel shotguns and melee). There are however two points where I differ a bit:

 

1. I don't think that damage can be based on the energy of the weapons/calibers. It sounds tempting on first sight but is not at all realistic. The problem is that FO4 fights are all to the death, so what stops fights is raw damage. What stops fights in the real world however is not (just) raw energy.

 

Let's compare .38 (Special?) and .308 (Winchester?). The .38 has 350 Joules (with strong loads), the .308 has 3500 Joules. While the .308 is much more effective in combat, it is not 10 times more effective. Statistics (I take mostly from Marshall, Sanow, Ellifritz, some others and own calculations) are problematic, but simplified: you can count on a 50-60% one-shot incapacitation rate of the .38 with a failure rate to stop of about 15-20%, for the .308 it is a one-shot stop rate of 80% and a failure rate of under 10%. So the rifle bullet is almost twice as effective as the handgun bullet (btw as any handgun bullet, be it .22 lr or .44 Magnum).

 

It would do the .38 no justice if you made it for example 30 damage and the .308 300 damage, relative to the energy. The .38 is not 10 times worse than the .308 in a fight. It is much more effective per energy unit to stop fights (because a lot of fights stop because people decide to stop, because of fear, pain, the wish not to eat more bullets, and because of the fact that it does not matter that much wether the aorta is destroyed by a stronger or weaker bullet). It would be ok to make the .308 two or even three times stronger, to simulate the much higher effect of high energy bullets against larger creatures.

 

In my game the .38 has 50 damage, the .308 has 130. Human health is fixed and between 150 and 200 (also for the player).

 

 

2. I don't like the removal of the sneak damage multiplier. This multiplier seems like magic and often you can read "a bullet is a bullet and does not magically do more damage when shot from sneak". That is very wrong in a certain sense. And the problem has nothing to do with the fact that you can aim more carefully as sneaky sniper.

 

In fact living creatures (humans and other animals, and I bet supermutants would not differ; for ghouls however, hmmm...) react quite differently to hits wether they expect it and are full of adrenaline or wether they are hit by surprise. The chance of immediate and total incapacitation is much higher from a surprise hit.

 

So Beth got it totally right to give much more damage to sneak shots and sneak melee hits. First thing I do when using "reality mods" is removing their removal of the "magic sneak damage multiplier". :happy:

Edited August 9, 2019 by geala

[Moldy]

I tend to see sneak attack bonuses as an abstraction of taking the time to specifically strike at a defensive vulnerability and/or something vital. Really,video games are loaded with abstractions,necessary to ensure that the game won't get bogged down too much. Let's take bagging yourself a Radstag. Why do you only get one Radstag tenderloin,or two with a magazine perk? One answer is that it's because you botch the field dress every single time,which isn't exactly believable. A second answer is that it's an abstraction of how much generic edible meat you've been able to find on the corpse,with the magazine giving you insight into what offal is safe to eat,and the game simply abstracts this as a cut of tenderloin.

 

As for the damage idea; Due to how damage is handled by the engine,proper AP effects are practically impossible. Armour protection in Fallout 4 follows a quadratic curve,and high values,such as on Fog Crawlers or Mirelurk Queens,might as well be invulnerable outside of sniping at weak points or the use of excessive force; Remember that both can shrug off multiple Fat Man shells. And the quadratic armour curve is to blame. The 30% armour penetration of the Penetrating effect,which is likely going to be piggybacked by every other AP effect in the game and this mod,therefore sees diminishing returns against foes with extreme armour. To the tune of seeing less than a 5% damage increase against most Mirelurks,despite your ignoring 30% of their armour. Anybody in power armour is going to see a similar degree of defensive insanity. Throw on the top tier Ballistic Weave with a Vault Suit and a full suit of Marine Assault Armour,and you're looking at a similar degree of invulnerability.

 

This means that the only real way to combat the runaway armour curve is to give more energetic calibres much more damage,since the only other way to fight against the armour race is to cripple armour. And one of the fastest ways to put most everybody I know off of a game is to have armour that doesn't do its job.

 

From a game design perspective,Antistar's in something of a terrifying position,trying to find the knife's edge of balance for the defensive arms race.

[antistar]

Most of the planned features sound good to me, although I don't want new or better weapons in my game especially (I have a "primitive" setting, mostly crossbows, pipe guns, double-barrel shotguns and melee). There are however two points where I differ a bit:

 

1. I don't think that damage can be based on the energy of the weapons/calibers. It sounds tempting on first sight but is not at all realistic. The problem is that FO4 fights are all to the death, so what stops fights is raw damage. What stops fights in the real world however is not (just) raw energy.

 

Let's compare .38 (Special?) and .308 (Winchester?). The .38 has 350 Joules (with strong loads), the .308 has 3500 Joules. While the .308 is much more effective in combat, it is not 10 times more effective. Statistics (I take mostly from Marshall, Sanow, Ellifritz, some others and own calculations) are problematic, but simplified: you can count on a 50-60% one-shot incapacitation rate of the .38 with a failure rate to stop of about 15-20%, for the .308 it is a one-shot stop rate of 80% and a failure rate of under 10%. So the rifle bullet is almost twice as effective as the handgun bullet (btw as any handgun bullet, be it .22 lr or .44 Magnum).

 

It would do the .38 no justice if you made it for example 30 damage and the .308 300 damage, relative to the energy. The .38 is not 10 times worse than the .308 in a fight. It is much more effective per energy unit to stop fights (because a lot of fights stop because people decide to stop, because of fear, pain, the wish not to eat more bullets, and because of the fact that it does not matter that much wether the aorta is destroyed by a stronger or weaker bullet). It would be ok to make the .308 two or even three times stronger, to simulate the much higher effect of high energy bullets against larger creatures.

 

In my game the .38 has 50 damage, the .308 has 130. Human health is fixed and between 150 and 200 (also for the player).

I think I did mention that the "damage values from real-world muzzle energy values" thing would most likely end up being a kind of rough guideline or starting point. ;) So far I've used them to get relative power levels between different calibres before hand-tweaking the final damage values.

 

At the moment I've got .38 Spc doing 26 damage and .308 Win doing 150 damage (and human HP values are ~150-300) - but all the damage values I'm using are pretty likely to change after implementing AmmoTweaks and doing some proper testing.

 

 

2. I don't like the removal of the sneak damage multiplier. This multiplier seems like magic and often you can read "a bullet is a bullet and does not magically do more damage when shot from sneak". That is very wrong in a certain sense. And the problem has nothing to do with the fact that you can aim more carefully as sneaky sniper.

 

In fact living creatures (humans and other animals, and I bet supermutants would not differ; for ghouls however, hmmm...) react quite differently to hits wether they expect it and are full of adrenaline or wether they are hit by surprise. The chance of immediate and total incapacitation is much higher from a surprise hit.

 

So Beth got it totally right to give much more damage to sneak shots and sneak melee hits. First thing I do when using "reality mods" is removing their removal of the "magic sneak damage multiplier". :happy:

You know what, "adrenaline" probably is the best explanation I've heard for sneak attack bonus damage. I don't think I've thought of it that way before. Previously I'd thought of it as being intended in kind of the way Moldy said there; an abstraction of getting the opportunity to line up a careful shot and hit a vital area. That kind of clashes with being able to also line up head-shots (or hit other vulnerable spots) in my opinion, which is why I wanted to emphasise that and remove sneak attack critical damage.

 

Adrenaline though, hmm... I mean you might argue that that wouldn't make sense when it comes to robots or other enemies that maybe don't have adrenaline - and that it might become more complicated when taking armour into account, depending on how the damage resistance calculations work. Like maybe it would make more sense for susceptible enemies to have fewer HP when caught unaware. On the other hand though... who cares, maybe? Maybe that's not incredibly important.

 

So yeah; I'll give it some thought.

 

 

I tend to see sneak attack bonuses as an abstraction of taking the time to specifically strike at a defensive vulnerability and/or something vital. Really,video games are loaded with abstractions,necessary to ensure that the game won't get bogged down too much. Let's take bagging yourself a Radstag. Why do you only get one Radstag tenderloin,or two with a magazine perk? One answer is that it's because you botch the field dress every single time,which isn't exactly believable. A second answer is that it's an abstraction of how much generic edible meat you've been able to find on the corpse,with the magazine giving you insight into what offal is safe to eat,and the game simply abstracts this as a cut of tenderloin.

 

As for the damage idea; Due to how damage is handled by the engine,proper AP effects are practically impossible. Armour protection in Fallout 4 follows a quadratic curve,and high values,such as on Fog Crawlers or Mirelurk Queens,might as well be invulnerable outside of sniping at weak points or the use of excessive force; Remember that both can shrug off multiple Fat Man shells. And the quadratic armour curve is to blame. The 30% armour penetration of the Penetrating effect,which is likely going to be piggybacked by every other AP effect in the game and this mod,therefore sees diminishing returns against foes with extreme armour. To the tune of seeing less than a 5% damage increase against most Mirelurks,despite your ignoring 30% of their armour. Anybody in power armour is going to see a similar degree of defensive insanity. Throw on the top tier Ballistic Weave with a Vault Suit and a full suit of Marine Assault Armour,and you're looking at a similar degree of invulnerability.

 

This means that the only real way to combat the runaway armour curve is to give more energetic calibres much more damage,since the only other way to fight against the armour race is to cripple armour. And one of the fastest ways to put most everybody I know off of a game is to have armour that doesn't do its job.

 

From a game design perspective,Antistar's in something of a terrifying position,trying to find the knife's edge of balance for the defensive arms race.

From what isathar has said, I think armour-piercing is a bit more involved in AmmoTweaks 2.0 than always being the same 30% value - so that's promising. I like the idea of needing to pull out certain weapon/ammo types against certain enemies. E.g. needing to treat a Sentry Bot like a tank and get out a grenade/missile launcher (or some EMP grenades/rounds, maybe), rather than plinking away at it with small arms.

 

I'll do my best to tweak damage and armour values as much as I need to for everything to work - and you're right; I'm not expecting it to be easy.

[endermade1]

First of all I will like to say that this mod looks really good, and I wish I could play it. I wonât be able to because I play fallout 4 on Xbox and canât be bother to buy it again on pc. Anyway on to my main point... is there anyway just the weapons and modifications could be added to Xbox?

 

 

Me and my friend are really wanting lore friendly weapon mods, but there seems to be a lack (the only good one I can think of is the service rifle mod but theres not enough customization in it for us).

 

Also in reply to the person who said the names should be slightly changed ,though I know they won see this because the post is almost 3 years old, I will just like to point out that there are many real gun companies in the universe (glock, H&K, SIG, Winchester, and more).

[Moldy]

I've had a chat with a pair of soldiers I know,and I've learned something. If you dismount a Bofors 40mm AA autocannon from whatever it's mounted to,and cut down the barrel,then finally mount it to a superframe of a sort (Similar to how the Broadsider's built),it'd be a plausible power armour unit's heavy weapon. The ammo,of course,would be cargo-intensive,being 40*311mm to 40*365mm and two pounds apiece. That's just over a foot long per shell,and just under a kilogram each. The AA shell would be higher velocity than the others,and a proximity airburst,effectively serving as a 40mm flak shell. There's also an HE shell,which is used by the Bofors when it's mounted inside an AC-130 Spooky gunship,for when the Bofor's pointed at a surface target.

 

It should also be noted that the Bofors is loaded via a top-mounted hopper,meaning it loads similarly to a lever-action carbine.

 

Would a dismounted Bofors be practical in the least? Probably not. But Fallout 4's heavy weapons compliment is in dire need of an expansion.

[antistar]

First of all I will like to say that this mod looks really good, and I wish I could play it. I wonât be able to because I play fallout 4 on Xbox and canât be bother to buy it again on pc. Anyway on to my main point... is there anyway just the weapons and modifications could be added to Xbox?

Thanks. :) Please see the FAQ in the second post, though.

 

 

I've had a chat with a pair of soldiers I know,and I've learned something. If you dismount a Bofors 40mm AA autocannon from whatever it's mounted to,and cut down the barrel,then finally mount it to a superframe of a sort (Similar to how the Broadsider's built),it'd be a plausible power armour unit's heavy weapon. The ammo,of course,would be cargo-intensive,being 40*311mm to 40*365mm and two pounds apiece. That's just over a foot long per shell,and just under a kilogram each. The AA shell would be higher velocity than the others,and a proximity airburst,effectively serving as a 40mm flak shell. There's also an HE shell,which is used by the Bofors when it's mounted inside an AC-130 Spooky gunship,for when the Bofor's pointed at a surface target.

 

It should also be noted that the Bofors is loaded via a top-mounted hopper,meaning it loads similarly to a lever-action carbine.

 

Would a dismounted Bofors be practical in the least? Probably not. But Fallout 4's heavy weapons compliment is in dire need of an expansion.

I don't know much about the Bofors, but damn, I would've thought it would be just too big. I mean the wikipedia page on it describes it as weighing literal metric tons. Presumably that's including the mount and whatever else, but still.

[geala]

 

 

You know what, "adrenaline" probably is the best explanation I've heard for sneak attack bonus damage. I don't think I've thought of it that way before. Previously I'd thought of it as being intended in kind of the way Moldy said there; an abstraction of getting the opportunity to line up a careful shot and hit a vital area. That kind of clashes with being able to also line up head-shots (or hit other vulnerable spots) in my opinion, which is why I wanted to emphasise that and remove sneak attack critical damage.

 

Adrenaline though, hmm... I mean you might argue that that wouldn't make sense when it comes to robots or other enemies that maybe don't have adrenaline - and that it might become more complicated when taking armour into account, depending on how the damage resistance calculations work. Like maybe it would make more sense for susceptible enemies to have fewer HP when caught unaware. On the other hand though... who cares, maybe? Maybe that's not incredibly important.

 

So yeah; I'll give it some thought.

 

 

 

 

You have a good point, robots are a problem for my approach (damn robots). Of course they are not affected by biochemical mechanics which heavily rule human reaction to woundings. Maybe ghouls are similar. For robots then I would go with the "better aiming" model. Although most robots are so strong in my game that it is best to avoid combat at all. :happy:

 

I tend to see sneak attack bonuses as an abstraction of taking the time to specifically strike at a defensive vulnerability and/or something vital. Really,video games are loaded with abstractions,necessary to ensure that the game won't get bogged down too much. Let's take bagging yourself a Radstag. Why do you only get one Radstag tenderloin,or two with a magazine perk? One answer is that it's because you botch the field dress every single time,which isn't exactly believable. A second answer is that it's an abstraction of how much generic edible meat you've been able to find on the corpse,with the magazine giving you insight into what offal is safe to eat,and the game simply abstracts this as a cut of tenderloin.

 

 

 

Sneak damage has not much to do with careful aiming or headshots (snipers usually don't aim for the head as far as I know (I'm no sniper), at least in the military). If you are a hunter, you can see it more easily, as most people don't spend much time sniping at humans, fortunately. Shoot a beast which is not aware of any danger, then shoot a beast at exactly the same place which is already wounded/fleeing/aggressive. Usually big differences. The beast shot unaware is much more often down immediately.

Edited August 15, 2019 by geala

[Moldy]

Well,the Bofors firing mechanism is small enough to conceal beneath a duster. Since the feed system is a gravity-assisted,recoil-operated self-extract system,it's exceptionally simple. Most of the weight of a Bofors comes from the exceptionally long barrel,and the carriage. A Bofors modified how I described earlier would certainly be an exceptionally heavy weapon,likely weighing in excess of 100 pounds,empty,but considering the mechanical simplicity and compactness of the system,I can easily see it getting stripped down to something a PA unit can wield.

 

The question is if somebody is willing to actually do that,especially considering each single shell weighs two goddamned pounds.

[Nihilisaurus]

Well,the Bofors firing mechanism is small enough to conceal beneath a duster. Since the feed system is a gravity-assisted,recoil-operated self-extract system,it's exceptionally simple. Most of the weight of a Bofors comes from the exceptionally long barrel,and the carriage. A Bofors modified how I described earlier would certainly be an exceptionally heavy weapon,likely weighing in excess of 100 pounds,empty,but considering the mechanical simplicity and compactness of the system,I can easily see it getting stripped down to something a PA unit can wield.

 

The question is if somebody is willing to actually do that,especially considering each single shell weighs two goddamned pounds.

The Bofors is recoil-operated! If you cut the barrel off it'll stop cycling as the reciprocating mass of the barrel is what drives the action. Not only that, you can't lighten the receiver as it has to be able to withstand the forces inherent in throwing the barrel back and forth. If it was possible to cut several hundred pounds off the Bofors it'd have been done during WWII when with a hundred individual guns ( for say 25 quad mounts on a battleship) it'd have equated to several tons of saved topweight that could have been used to add even more guns.

 

The Bofors receiver would fit in a floor-length duster ...with no person in it.

 

All that aside, the Bofors is a high-velocity gun and the recoil is sufficient to warrant a four-wheel carriage which had to be held in place by deployable stabilising arms before firing, so I'm not sure even a guy in power armour is going to be able to handle the recoil, especially with a much lighter gun not helping by absorbing some of it.

 

I get your enthusiasm for variety in heavy weapons, but handheld high-velocity recoil-operated automatic 40mm anti-aircraft guns *might* not be the way to go. A .30-06 (or perhaps even .50 BMG) machinegun would probably make a decent weapon for power armour, and if you're keen on automatic 40mm-diameter HE rounds then an automatic grenade launcher might be a good idea? Or a multi-tube missile launcher than the XM202 'Flash'?

Edited August 16, 2019 by Lt Albrecht

[Moldy]

Grenade machine guns exist,yes. But something about an autocannon screams "Yes." to me. And Antistar has said,multiple times,that if he implements a new traditional machine gun,then Hell or high water,it'll be belt-fed,have a fully animated belt,and dynamically run out if you tape the trigger down. So,I doubt we'll be seeing a traditional machine gun in the mod unless an omnidisciplinary modding wizard steps out of the aether.