Skyrim - not so much free choice as I hoped

[Rennn]

This is out of place, perhaps, (great points by the last few people, btw), but it always annoyed me that I'd have to listen like a naive child whenever somebody started talking about the Oblivion crisis, even though I played Oblivion (played it to death, in fact). Why can't it detect Oblivion save data like Mass Effect or something and give us Oblivion players a new option? Something like "I'm the best scholar in the world on the Oblivion Crisis. Now shut up and let me go find Mehrune's freaking Razor!"

 

Or, "Yes, random old person, I have researched the Psijic Order from my journey in the province of Morrowind. Now shush like a good little mage and don't lock me into twelve character-breaking conversations that make me feel like a noob."

Edited January 6, 2012 by Rennn

[abaris]

  On 1/6/2012 at 10:49 PM, Rennn said:

Why can't it detect Oblivion save data like Mass Effect or something and give us Oblivion players a new option? Something like "I'm the best scholar in the world on the Oblivion Crisis. Now shut up and let me go find Mehrune's freaking Razor!"

 

Because, as opposed to Mass Effect, there isn't any continuity. At the end of Morrowind and Oblivion you were still everybody's favorite village idiot. The lore goes on with or without you.

 

One of my less favorite aspects of Elder Scroll games by the way.

[thesapien]

  On 1/6/2012 at 10:40 PM, myrmaad said:

As soon as I realized how much I liked armoring ingame I pretty much gravitated to crafting a spellsword. I know nothing about Dragon Age, never played that.

 

Classes have been thrown out for Skyrim but this might be edifying for you.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Spellsword

 

Wow, the only classes there who specialize in magic also use heavy armor. No quick and nimble magic users in Oblivion? Interesting. That does give me an idea for building a tank character in Skyrim.

[galalic]

Thes, the reason I mind is that I don't have a problem with limiting my own character. Many people here clearly feel the same way. My first playthrough was a Nord warrior: no magic, no pickpocketing, no dual-wielding, no shield, no heavy armor. Just a barbarian, with a giant sword and light (albeit awesome, of course) armor. And I had a blast.

 

Could I have done more damage using spells? Well, of course. But that's not who he was.

 

The character I just started is a rogue/mage, so things will be different this time around, from the quests I choose, to the way I do combat. Limiting? Absolutely. I don't think I'll have enough perks to work down the smithing tree, much less alchemy and enchanting, and that significantly nerfs your abilities. But I don't mind that; I mind being told I have to play a character both different than I'd like, and different than a typical medieval RPG. Yes, it's great that you can be whatever you want. It's less great when you have to be what Bethesda wants. ;)

 

-Rog

[thesapien]

Rog, that's cool.

 

I guess I'm just weird to the veterans of medieval RPG's. Having only played DA before, it feels like the opposite for me here in Skyrim. Take your new rogue/mage character. I always wanted to play as one in DA but couldn't. I could have a rogue and a mage but not combined into one.

 

Also better for me here, I kind of like that self imposed limitations are actually rewarded; something perhaps unnoticed from the veteran's perspective. If you try to master everything that is allowed, then you'll level up without being really badass at any one or two things. Since enemies often level up with you, well, that could put you at a disadvantage. So the game rewards most those who pick just a few specialties and stick to them. So, for example, I avoid the temptation to mix potions and sell them for lots of coin unless I'm planning to specialize in alchemy and use most of my potions. Otherwise, it quickly levels up my character in both alchemy and speechcraft and thus levels up my enemies even if I haven't been fighting much and have yet to level up my abilities for dishing out damage. I so want to try focusing on speechcraft and becoming a merchant, but damn, that requires a lot of leveling in something that doesn't help much in combat, ouch! It's the first game for me where leveling up is something I try to do with caution and even avoid sometimes. The game will say "level up" and I'll be like no, not now, I'm not ready to fight tougher enemies until... oh, but I need that one perk... what to do.... oh, okay, but I'm still just adding a smithing perk, lol.

[ThomasKra]

  On 1/3/2012 at 8:49 PM, myrmaad said:

http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/topic/4542-wipzidea-skyrim-derailed

 

Glad it's being wipped up in a safe home.

 

Thanks for the shout-out. :D

 

In the topic of the word walls: "don't join them, don't get them" is a flawed argument. Denying someone an ENTIRE shout without joining a Guild is fine. You simply won't ever see it outside the Guild and won't be nagged. Besides, if that Shout was found in a Guild-specific dungeon, chances are a person outside the Guild will not be interested in it anyways. Example: my warrior has no need for the Throw Voice shout, so it could be placed in the Thieves Guild dungeon so that obtaining it will be restricted to play-styles that actually have use for it (gives thieves a means of distracting someone, a nice thing to have). Or the Elemental Fury shout, if the whole Shout was restricted to the Companions, again, no problems. Warriors benefit the most from that shout, so the people who have little use for it would never need to be bothered with it.

 

What Skyrim does instead is a PARTIAL denial, and that is bad. Not allowing you the ENTIRE shout can help a roleplayer get more into the role if the right shouts are restricted to the right Guilds. Only denying them a Word, however, is bogus. It means you will constantly be running around with an incomplete Shout that, if you are roleplaying and wish not to join a Guild, you will never be able to finish. That is a nag, and nags are irritating.

 

If you want to play the "choose it or lose it" card, the choice needs to be meaningful. Denying full shouts specific to a Guild's interests is meaningful, denying only single words is aggravating.

 

The Forbidden Legend quest is another, more blatant example if this. Unless you join the College, you will not be permitted to finish this quest. That is NOT a choice, it is an attempt to manipulate the player using carrot-or-stick logic. Same thing with the partial shout denial: if you don't join this Guild, you can't have the rest of this Shout. Again, carrot-and-stick attempt to bait the player into doing something he might not want to do. Even attaching the full Shouts to certain Guilds might be seen like this, which is why I'm going to just ditch all the faction dependencies and make the Word Walls free to access for any and all.

 

Everything this mod addresses are Bethesda attempting to manipulate the player with continuation-or-denial scenarios. Those are not proper choices. Proper choices need to have proper outcomes on BOTH sides. These "choices" I'm removing only have an outcome on one side, the other side is a brick wall.

[ortog]

A little more about free choice ...

1. You have to prove the old *censored*, you're not a camel, just a small and docile Dovakiin. If you do not obedient boy \ girl - you will never see again Alduin, the dragons will not terrorize Skyrim. If you miraculously get to the top of the Great Mountains, you'll see that is nobody there. How sad .

2. You should get into the embassy building and steal all the secret documents. And do not try to open your mouth, a piece of s***! But why? Shut up!

3. You have to pull an old *censored* lover from the stinking pit. Why? Do not ask too many questions brainless cattle. Shut your mouth and do what you are told. But.... Shut up!

4. Now fast Bring us where we tell, kill all enemies. Open the doors for us with your blood and get out of here. Ahhh ... I almost forgot. Kill Alduin, Pathronaax, all dragons and ... then get another job. Now get out of here, you motherless bastard.

 

I apologize for the bad English and can be for being too emotional, but I just feel so overall atmosphere of the main quest in Skyrim.

 

Relatively The Elder Scroll.

When I first played Skyrim and went to Winterhold, I got lost. Decided to bypass the cliff by the sea and saw a cave on the map. As a weary traveler, I decided to get to the cave to sleep, eat ... So I found Septimus. His quest has nothing to do with the main quest. So you can have Elder Scroll to the beginning of the game, if you're looking for adventure

[sajuukkhar9000]

I really don't see the problem with the way Skyrim's quests are.

 

 

I find the fact you have to join The Theives Guild and The College, though you actually don't since there are back ways into both areas, a good thing because it makes the people feel more real. If you were to go to a business or a group and just demand whatever you want they would laugh your ass off. Most group wont just bend over backwards and hand random strangers what they might find as valuable information without having to join them first.

 

One of my biggest gripes about Morrowind, Oblivion and frankly most older RPGs is how everyone just freely hands you s*** even though they have no idea who you are. Its silly and kills the believability of the world.

 

 

As for not being able to get only certain parts of a shout or item unless you join a guild, I see no problem with that either. You should not expect to get everything without first joining every group. In fact I think Bethesda missed out on a GREAT opportunity to bind each of the three pieces of the Galdur amulet to faction quests. the Health piece shoul go on a companions quest, the Stamina piece a thieves guild quest and the magicka piece on a College quest.

Edited January 14, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[elricshan]

  On 1/6/2012 at 10:59 PM, thesapien said:

  On 1/6/2012 at 10:40 PM, myrmaad said:

As soon as I realized how much I liked armoring ingame I pretty much gravitated to crafting a spellsword. I know nothing about Dragon Age, never played that.

 

Classes have been thrown out for Skyrim but this might be edifying for you.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Spellsword

 

Wow, the only classes there who specialize in magic also use heavy armor. No quick and nimble magic users in Oblivion? Interesting. That does give me an idea for building a tank character in Skyrim.

 

witchhunter sounds like it uses light armor and magic.

 

as for all the people that want to go inside the mages guild trying to talk themself past the guard at the brige i think that the easyest way of moding them inside of the college would be placing a note in winterhold or giving a rumor/finding it in a book that there is a secret way to the inside of the colege and that a long time a masterthief found it in a cave under the colege. and then it is just a madder of plasing a stair/ladder thingy in the midden so that the player can get up from the place he jumps down.

 

as for restricted shouts. why would somebody just write one word of the shout in skyrim? an easy way is copying some of the wordwalls into some new dungeon and so it wil be some more of the shouts or you could make a wall give two words at the same time just as the one that gives three because it would make sence if shouts are mentioned on just one place in all of skyrim, it would make sence if some are mentioned more times than other like firebreath as that is an useful thing to know and sow more people would know it and more stones mentione it. or just make some stonetablets like the first one act as shouts books.

 

the companion become doggy choice could be that you go and talk to the smart harbringer and he gives you something diferent to do because he would like you to stay human and tell aela that you can keep on with the quest without beeing a good doggy. because of this maybe this could be mentioned in his journal when you find it.

 

as for the dark brotherhood joining you could just give AA some advices on life and he goes back to the orphan-house to show the kind mistress there that he is strong and do not tollerate that she is a bad woman and he shal prove that he is better that she is by living there.

 

the thief gouild and finding the lost blade is logical because why would a bunch of thieves help a stranger that just found their hide out. befrend them or go into the sewers yourself while you are looking for him, bribe the gould to tell you or make an option that you can pay one of the sewer hobos to show you the way.

 

as for quest staing in your journal when you choose not to do it is logical for even if your caracter dont like to do things that way he/she/it has still heard about it and therefore knows about it even if it goes against the moral compas of that person.

[Brandy1123]

I found my most enjoyed and hardest game play was when I opted to not use any town what-so-ever. I looked at how I entered into Helgen and took that as an Omen. I decided if ever I was to become free, I would hide myself from society. I never entered a town/village/fort/settlement/campsite. It was very difficult. As such, I presumed I would never learn alchemy, smithing or enchanting. So, I never used those devices either. I never trained a skill. I did sell to the Kajiits if i found them along the roadways, but not near a town or while they were encamped.

 

As a result of playing this way, I just looked back at my final save and only had spawned 7 quests. 3 of which were generic. I finally called it quits on her at 41st level. I did most dungeons,caves and ruins i was able to gain access to. I had 4 items in my inventory that could not be dropped and were persistant.

 

So, without using any console commands, any "cheats" or any followers, I had the best game play through of my Skyrim experience. Of the 15 or so times I completed what I decided was my final goal for a particular toon, This one I spoke about was my most memorable. I had complete choice i would say in about 95% of the entire time..

 

I hope this is what you were intending on when you opened this discussion.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Brandy_123