Sunnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The toolset was not part of anyone's "purchase", no matter what version or price that was paid for it. They are (as they always have) providing the toolset as a free add-on and are in no way way legally obligated to do so. They do so for many reasons, first and foremost to extend the life and profitability of the product. They don't (or ever did) provide the toolset out of some sense of appreciation or responsibility to a small portion of their customers, it is and always will be about keeping the doors open, the lights on, and the employees paid. Reality in motion! :biggrin:I believe there is a case for false advertising if that is all it was, an advertising ruse.. I wouldn't have bought the game if there was no mention of the CK and mods, being a feature they did in fact advertise. Marketing hype will never be seen in the legal system as false advertising. True false advertising is a missing feature(s) from the product that are detailed to be included in the products official release description (on the companies site or in the products user guide) and/or on the physical box. Simply claiming that a toolset will be released (for free even) would only be skating on the outskirts of false advertising if it was detailed as an official feature of the product and part of what comes with the purchasing the license. It also can't be considered false advertising because they are indeed going to release it, they just have yet to commit to any specific date. Theres also the little detail of fitness issues that can always push a release date back.http://legal-diction...lse+Advertising The key word used thoughout that description is "deception". In this case, Bethesda has not deceived anyone. They only promised they would release it, and gave estimates in the beginning, and finally to a month. It would be exceedingly difficult to prove to a judge that Bethesda deceived anyone with their blog and forum posts for something that isn't detailed as an actual feature of the purchasable product. I know this because I was involved in a legal matter very similar in nature, from what I remember the plaintiff very quickly lost when it went for arbitration. Every case is going to be different, but there is precedence that will pseudo protect developers from the average consumer and their oft misguided expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 After-release patches are part of your purchases, are they not? Actually, they are not. Developers provide free patches because fixing errors/flaws is a good business practice and helps keep customers satisfied and returning. They are in no way obligated by any law to provide free fixes for any software, on any platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghogiel Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 They only promised they would release it, and gave estimates in the beginning, and finally to a month. It would be exceedingly difficult to prove to a judge that Bethesda deceived anyone with their blog and forum posts for something that isn't detailed as an actual feature of the purchasable product.If they didn't release it at all. Several official press releases of the the games features prior to it's release did in fact detail modding tools are also to be released. http://www.bethblog.com/2011/01/19/new-creation-kit-to-bring-modding-tools-to-skyrim/ If that was an advertising ruse, I beleive that there would be a case for false advertising. Saying that, they might try to perpetually put that in limbo just by claiming it's on it's way... and continue to claim such indefinitely lol. Though I know some judges would call BS on that rather quick as they don't like to be f***ed with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazakala Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Fresh from bethblog's twitter account: "we're still looking to have it (CK) out this month. Keep an eye on our blog for new updates" - Seems to me like it won't be released quite yet, I'll check back on the 31st... :sleep: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 They only promised they would release it, and gave estimates in the beginning, and finally to a month. It would be exceedingly difficult to prove to a judge that Bethesda deceived anyone with their blog and forum posts for something that isn't detailed as an actual feature of the purchasable product.If they didn't release it at all. Several official press releases of the the games features prior to it's release did in fact detail modding tools are also to be released. http://www.bethblog....ools-to-skyrim/ If that was an advertising ruse, I beleive that there would be a case for false advertising. Saying that, they might try to perpetually put that in limbo just by claiming it's on it's way... and continue to claim such indefinitely lol. Though I know some judges would call BS on that rather quick as they don't like to be f***ed with."If they didn't release it at all. " is the key here. Obviously if they don't ever release the toolset, this would indeed be a persuable case, though I doubt it will be very, cut and dried. If Bethsoft maintains an air of "it's coming, we just don't know when", it will make things even more muddy because then someone has to officially establish a reasonable period of time for the wait. You know how hard that will be.This however will never come to pass because Bethsoft will release this toolset long before it can be pursued. :tongue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natula123 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Guys....? Why has this become about law and psychology? It's about the CK....Anyway. I believe and I strongly believe(SOO Much belief that if let down. I will never have faith in Bethesda again.....till the CK is out) that it hopefully will come out around 20-23rd. Cause It must come out with I am still on holidays or I will be pissed!!! Come on Bethesda! Good game, now just ice the cake :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashven Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 After-release patches are part of your purchases, are they not? Actually, they are not. Developers provide free patches because fixing errors/flaws is a good business practice and helps keep customers satisfied and returning. They are in no way obligated by any law to provide free fixes for any software, on any platform. That makes little sense. Patches aren't optional - imagine what would happen if Bethesda said "Fark it, PS3 owners can kiss it" and didn't release another patch. Imagine the fiasco. The CK might be optional but it would be along the same lines of disaster if they tried that. The PC version would not be worth buying without the CK. At least on the 360, you don't have to deal with the gilded turd that is Steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedemoninside Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 After-release patches are part of your purchases, are they not? Actually, they are not. Developers provide free patches because fixing errors/flaws is a good business practice and helps keep customers satisfied and returning. They are in no way obligated by any law to provide free fixes for any software, on any platform. That makes little sense. Patches aren't optional - imagine what would happen if Bethesda said "Fark it, PS3 owners can kiss it" and didn't release another patch. Imagine the fiasco. The CK might be optional but it would be along the same lines of disaster if they tried that. The PC version would not be worth buying without the CK. At least on the 360, you don't have to deal with the gilded turd that is Steam. I still do not know why Steam has become the company of choice for PC games to be attached to at purchase. Some would say it is to prevent copying the game illegally, but many of you know how well THAT works. Achievements? Who cares about those? It does help me keep my games that are installed with steam up to date, but really that is only a minor convenience (and can sometimes be a huge inconvenience if the patch breaks more than it fixes) I just don't get it. Do the software developers think we actually want this crap? Maybe it benefits them financially to go through Steam to get their game distributed. Either way Bethesda should have taken the time that they have in past games to make Skyrim truly great out of the box. Their previous games seem to have more neat features, and better layout for a PC. Now they are showing more of a trend towards "Streamlining" a.k.a. skimping on the features and polish that make their games better than all the rest. Sad times...thank god for the modding community! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnie Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 After-release patches are part of your purchases, are they not? Actually, they are not. Developers provide free patches because fixing errors/flaws is a good business practice and helps keep customers satisfied and returning. They are in no way obligated by any law to provide free fixes for any software, on any platform. That makes little sense. Patches aren't optional - imagine what would happen if Bethesda said "Fark it, PS3 owners can kiss it" and didn't release another patch. Imagine the fiasco. The CK might be optional but it would be along the same lines of disaster if they tried that. The PC version would not be worth buying without the CK. At least on the 360, you don't have to deal with the gilded turd that is Steam.Actually, they are optional. You are not forced to download any patch to play any game. Obviously you are likely required to apply patches if you want to use features that require external infrastructure and/or components (more so on consoles), but that is still a choice you as a user make. As an example, I can turn off updates on Steam and never get patched, like I did to keep the 1.2 update from patching in. I chose which patch to allow, I wasn't forced into anything. It may make little sense to you, but it is what it is and it makes a lot of sense to me a a lot of other people. Also, I would rather deal with Steam (that I can turn off) than have that ball and chain that gets strapped to all four of your limbs with both M$Live and P$N (talk about being forced into stuff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cppcooper Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Also its a form of residual income for Beth. They make the game one time and the tooset...mods are then made by..well us...and a game that would otherwise not generate many sales after a small period goes on to sell copies year after year without any further effort of Bethesda's part. Good for us...genius for them. Pretty much this. I don't think I would even be willing to play the game to completion without being able to modify at least a few essential things (as well as the non-essential fluff that makes it so much more fun). I deliberately didn't play the game until ~2 months over release so that there could be some basic fixes and mods available. If this hasn't been said in here already I am shocked. The first quote, I don't know why I bothered grabbing the second one, and then going to the length of explaining that I had no reason for doing so. It is just one of those things that should be common sense I figured everybody realized that was part of their series' appeal to gamers.-- Sure, if hypothetically they were to stomp on expectations of their customer base by not releasing the development kit you would have a false advertisement case.. but you'd have a very thin one.. and they'd stomp you in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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