Transgendered/Crossdressing

[Vagrant0]

perhaps he said perversion in a freudian sense. which is intended as every sex**l act that does not create life in the process (ie almost everything, also among heterosexuals.)

Exactly... Which is why I went on to define that word specifically before continuing... To avoid any confusion as to what is meant.

 

*Perversion as in distorted, illogical ideas, or taking aspects of a given lifestyle to a point where it prevents function within society.

 

Given that it is right in the middle of things should tell you that it is an important distinction between how most people use the word, and how I am using the word. I meant no offense. I was not saying that such people are necessarily perverted (in that sense) but rather their lifestyle can lead to various forms of preversion (in the sense I'm using it there). If you cannot understand that distinction, it only further proves the point that most people really aren't able to talk about the subject intelligently.

 

The post-pubescent adolescents whose psychological scarring you fear for are a damn sight more resilient than you give them credit for.

Far from... My concerns are not merely about some sort of shock, but merely being introduced to ideas which may result in changed behavior. However you may want to argue against it, there is evidence that merely being introduced to alternative sexualities can adjust the personal norms of the individual, and increase their chance of experimenting. As these experiments can often lead to doubts about oneself, and create conflict in the individuals life, it is not exactly something which should be presented to minors. Furthermore, topics on sexuallity of any kind are not generally suitable for minors (as per the over-reactive parent writing angry letters, federal law, ect.). If you were really interested in the subject there are plenty of resources out there, and although most are biased one way or another, they can certainly do the topic more justice than people on a gaming site.

 

A good place to start... Even though it is Wikipedia, there are some reasonably good links and sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

 

And when I say that people aren't able to talk about it intelligently, I am not aiming this at you personally, but at the general population. If I were to discuss the specifics about this topic with people I work with, or college students which were not majoring in human sexuality, I would certainly be met with unusual looks, followed by either politically (or religiously) motivated comments, or utter ignorance. Much of the reason why this is the way it is, is because the topic as it pertains to the public is because the topic has more of a tabloid-esque resonance than anything. Most of the exposure that people have to individuals of these groups are usually the sort of individuals who give those lifestyles a bad name. You mention "Gay" and they think of the stereotypical loose wristed, lispy, fruitcake (for lack of a better word) or some butch woman in flannel. You mention "Transvestite" and they think of either showy dragqueens, or individuals who gain sexual pleasure from wearing feminine garb. And it certainly doesn't help things when popular culture plays off these stereotypes. There are certainly individuals of these groups who can maintain their identity, but do not try and actively oppose the norms of society. They just aren't made part of the western psyche. Until society finally moves beyond such limited views of sexuallity, intelligent discussion on the matter, in a setting where most people are not up on the research, cannot really be possible. The addition of inconclusive or flawed research on the matter doesn't help things one bit.

 

In short, the revolution cannot really progress beyond where it is without social acceptance. Social acceptance cannot occur until there is alot of conclusive research to prove difinitively one way or another. When there are still studies concluding that "Gay men really have the brains of women" being done, and praised at being revolutionary, You really have to wonder if anyone really wants an actual answer, or just one that sounds "good enough". Afterall, up till lately, the pro-gay movement has been more concerned with just trying to shock people and create social conflicts, rather than try to negotiate with society.

 

And negotiating does not include Queer-eye or having a pink triangle on your bumper. If anything Queer-eye did more to reinforce people's views of homosexuals as being less "normal", or more like effiniminate men, than expose the culture to any sort of truths. As for pink triangles... You do know where they have their origins right? It's nice that you want to show your pride in your identity, but re-using a symbol of slaughter and oppression probably isn't the best way to go about doing it. In 20 years, hopefully we'll realize just how silly, and counter productive all of this really is.

[Malchik]

I am not sure what you want from a discussion. Surely it makes no difference to anyone here whether someone else decides to change gender or cross dress? Okay, we wouldn't do the same thing, but would you stop someone else from doing it? Should you care?

 

Let us suppose it is not you but your father who after all this time tells you he has decided to become a woman. Or you mother admits that beneath the pants she wears are MALE underpants. This brings it to the personal level much more forcibly than if it is a friend or acquaintance or even yourself.

 

My own view is that what counts in this life is being happy and anyone who professes to love another wants to see them happy. In which case the choice must be with the individual.

[Chesto]

Amen - I would say 'yes', but apparently you don't like that- Malchik.

 

Vagrant - my reaction to what I perceived as your intemperate use of the word 'perversion' came on the back of a sleepless night, induced by the nearly-a- hurricane that shook my 3 story house all night. I apologize for my grumpy response.

You have obviously given this a lot of thought, and , apparently , time spent in research. And in an ideal world none of us would open our mouths on any topic until we had spent similar. But we aint in an ideal world. All of us have opinions and motivations. Grumpiness aside, my message to you was that we should be able to talk about things like this. Things that may be completely foreign to our lives and way of thinking, that age should be no bar to the consideration of these things - I take your points on how young adolescents MAY be influenced by being introduced to 'strange' concepts. But, life is for learning. This Forum is a relatively safe environment in which to be 'exposed' to lots of things, not just chat about gaming. None of us should attempt to put barriers in the way of anyone seeking a bit of new knowledge, or even having a wish to reappraise ' old ' knowledge.

[xenxander]

It can be difficult to understand your sexual identity. The terms “gay” and “lesbian” are far flung in our society, which really do not do justice to each individual. Speaking about those select “one in a million” cases (which translates into roughly 6,500 people) who are actually born with both genders, being able to identify with one or the other can be quite hard for a growing individual.

 

Many cases, the parents decide which “set of plumbing” will be kept and which will be surgically removed. But this decision is rash and impulsive, stemming from parents who know not how to handle the situation and who rely solely on what “advice” is offered by “Professionals”. Very strange, that, when those professionals are themselves “not” in this situation and can only be making an educated guess. And let’s say they went with “male” and the female bits were removed. This child could grow up feeling very insecure, especially around puberty, about what social situations he feels comfortable in. Many might call him “gay” if he thinks pink looks good, or that he feels ‘this way’ about a male friend of his. Vice versa if “female” was the route chosen.

 

I admit this isn’t a normal case, but using this as a stepping stone what of those not born “dual”, who also feel a gender identity mismatch. Men can take female hormones, grow breasts, loose (or surgically remove) local body hair – become the woman they feel they are. These “TS” or transvestites may or may not actually be ‘gay’ in the broad sense but are certainly not the norm. Females who feel “male” inside but not necessarily lesbian may try other alternatives (of which I admit I am not familiar with).

 

I am of a mind to agree that this whole “coming out of the closet” has not had the results I am sure were intended. Living in WA for one year, I witnessed a ‘gay pride’ parade. It was (mostly) about men dressing up in tight homosexual leather outfits or men in drag – far too much color and flare for my taste (though I admit my tastes are heterosexual). At the time, I had a roommate who was gay and he just shook his head saying “this is not gay lifestyles, this is a huge attention-seeker crowd.”

 

We jokingly commented that some of these people should stay ‘in’ the closet. But what it all comes down to is find yourself, and identify with yourself. You don’t need to make a big deal over it, like those who you meet and on the first conversation with them will say “I’m gay”. I didn’t care, didn’t ask, and didn’t need to know.

[DarkAnsem]

-Baahblaaahcblacksheepwool

and you wrote here

http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=399268

 

that icemanmatt is to be banned because he's a racist... you also opened a topic here

http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?showtopic=52078

 

you're not showing very much tolerance indeed. at least the others cared to write a lenghty opinion, explaining.

 

Of course this is only my opinion, as thrashy and revolting it can be.

 

IMO there is no such a thing as "corrupting kids". one cannot be lead into one way or the other... you like this or that, or both. (or none, in very rare cases). There do is influence however, I will not deny that.

 

wikipedia has an interesting article about this amongst antrophomorphic apes.

[DarkAnsem]

dressing: ancient origins, from the Roman empire, seen as a way to escape roles and reality (no sexuality intended, roots of Carnival)

transexual/transgender: someone who feels he should be of the opposite sex, and therefore feels inadequate

homosexual: someone who has feelings/pulsions for people of his same gender

heterosexual: someone who has feelings/pulsions for people of the opposite gender

bisexual: a union of the two

pansexual: example, Alexander the Great, who enjoyed his wife as well as Ephaistion as well as dancers as well as cross-dressed dancers

asexual: absolutely indifferent to anything

[Corrupted]

well then i'm sorry i touched such a bad subject,as for information, yes i know where i can look, i've gone to a councilor, i've gone to my schools psychologist/councilor too...

 

and minors even if they were to be linked to this site, its also in the off topic forum, is this not off topic?

wouldn't this be just like introducing myself in a new fashion, but in a topic centralized idea?

 

i just wanted to widen my range of people to get to know, i know this is a gaming site, hell it isn't myspace...but i thought i'd try to open up some sort of free thoughts about it...

 

"Take me as I am, because there is no way in hell I will change for you", stating that no matter what this topic is filled with i'm not going to stop...

 

I thank you all for your opinions though, and I have/had no intention of making this some kind of conflict or war...just to set the record straight...

[ResidentWeevil2077]

Vagrant, who in the bloody hell do you think you are, huh!?! Just because you think homosexuality/cross-dressing/transexuality is wrong, doesn't mean you even give you the damn f**king right to say anything. I don't care if this gets me banned, but I'm not gonna let you get away with slandering ANYONE who is different from you.

 

This has nothing to do with what is right or wrong, black or white, for when it comes to the rights of human beings, no so-called "morals" will get in the way. It's this kind of prejudice that sickens me, more than anything, because people like you will NEVER understand a g*ddamn thing AT ALL. It's people like you who are less human than those you despise, those that you see as different from you, those that you feel are living their lives wrong...

 

Nah, it's you who are wrong, you're the one that is so closed off to everyone else that you are blind. Blind to humanity. You're a misanthropist, because you let you're so-called "moral system" blind you from seeing that everyone else isn't so different from you. I've got nothing else to say to you, or any other time after this, because I know who you are now.

[xenxander]

dressing: ancient origins, from the Roman empire, seen as a way to escape roles and reality (no sexuality intended, roots of Carnival)

transexual/transgender: someone who feels he should be of the opposite sex, and therefore feels inadequate

homosexual: someone who has feelings/pulsions for people of his same gender

heterosexual: someone who has feelings/pulsions for people of the opposite gender

bisexual: a union of the two

pansexual: example, Alexander the Great, who enjoyed his wife as well as Ephaistion as well as dancers as well as cross-dressed dancers

asexual: absolutely indifferent to anything

 

You forgot one:

Metrosexual: a heterosexual male who has a strong aesthetic sense and inordinate interest in appearance and style, similar to that of homosexual males

Etymology: 1994; blend of metropolitan + heterosexual

 

I've been classified as this from time to time, which originally disturbed me but now I find it novel if not perhaps fully acurate *smirks*

[Vagrant0]

Vagrant, who in the bloody hell do you think you are, huh!?! Just because you think homosexuality/cross-dressing/transexuality is wrong, doesn't mean you even give you the damn f**king right to say anything. I don't care if this gets me banned, but I'm not gonna let you get away with slandering ANYONE who is different from you.

 

This has nothing to do with what is right or wrong, black or white, for when it comes to the rights of human beings, no so-called "morals" will get in the way. It's this kind of prejudice that sickens me, more than anything, because people like you will NEVER understand a g*ddamn thing AT ALL. It's people like you who are less human than those you despise, those that you see as different from you, those that you feel are living their lives wrong...

 

Nah, it's you who are wrong, you're the one that is so closed off to everyone else that you are blind. Blind to humanity. You're a misanthropist, because you let you're so-called "moral system" blind you from seeing that everyone else isn't so different from you. I've got nothing else to say to you, or any other time after this, because I know who you are now.

First off. I NEVER made ANY moral claims on the matter. So please stop assuming that just because I do not agree with the discussion here that I am regurgitating concervative rhetoric. Second, This is a forums. People are supposed to be able to have their say on equal grounds. I am not hate mongering, nor am I flaming, most of what I sau can be backed up by the research, or even a general understanding of sociology. So please stop having these extreme reactions and actually READ what is being said. This is EXACTLY the reason why a topic like this is not fit to be discussed, people have too much baggage (religiuous rhetoric, liberal rhetoric) coming into the discussion, and limited understanding of anything of the subject beyond what is portrayed in popular culture. If you wish to offer contention to my arguments, you are free to do so as long as your contention is founded. So far pretty much everything said is so far from the truth that I'm actually a bit offended. I am not making any moral claims, my arguments are not motivated by polity or religion, and would appreciate you not making those assumptions. You condemn me for supposedly passing judgement, but yet you are so quick to pass judgement on me that you can't actually considder what I am talking about within the greater context of society. Primarily how western society has pretty much failed these groups totally, and given into parts of these groups who enjoy the spectacle, rather than those who life the lifestyle and are still productive in society. And how the showy, overexaggerated members of these groups are seen as role models, and how their behavior is copied as part of a sign of their lifestyle can lead to many, many years of hardship, and substance abuse because of the things that lifestyle deals with. Afterall, name one profession (not merely a job) outside the entertainment industry (especially those with male plumbing) where such a person would be regarded equally. You talk about "right" and "wrong" or acceptance, these things are meaningless if the people you are "accepting" cannot live a gainful lifestyle. And that gainful lifestyle cannot be achieved as long as long as you simpify things the way society (both liberal and conservative) currently does. If you disagree with something I said, there is nothing stopping you from saying so, provided that you can back it up with good logic or evidence. Taking this "high road" approach doesn't mean a whole heck of alot when what you're so actively opposing is not actually present, and when you don't back up any of those statements with anything other than heated insults. I mean no offense, but it is that sort of unquestioning acceptance of all things, without explaining why, or to what degree they should be accepted, as well in what context that is what should be challenged. People too often just believe exactly what they are told without ever thinking about it themselves.