So why did Alduin decide to attack Helgen?

[Kraeten]

Alduin probably just recognized that Helgen was a cruddy settlement in dire need of demolishing.

[ponyboy10]

Alduin probably just recognized that Helgen was a cruddy settlement in dire need of demolishing.

He does have a keen fashion sense :)

 

I actually JUST finished the main questline with Alduin, and this has been bothering me. I have to agree with the others that said that Alduin is a greater power and/or was basically just enacting his destiny by destroying Helgen but yet not the Dovahkiin. It's possible that he knew the Dovahkin was there, and then lost "sight" of him. However, if you think about it, he probably would have been able to tell if/when the Dovahkiin was killed at Helgen. Not to mention, he could have tracked you down while you were sleeping somewhere as well.

 

This gained even more gravitas (great word, right?), after I stumbled upon a book in High Hrothgar, i think titled "The Alduin and Akatosh Dichotomy", that went on to explain that everyone but the Nords believe that Alduin and Akatosh are the same entity. Either the Nords know what they're talking about, or I just beat the crap out of Deity Numero Uno! I like to think that they might be the same, but like different forms of the same higher-entity. Not to cause further argument by bringing more religion into it, but it could be something like the Christian view of the Holy Trinity. Here we have two dragons, the life-giver and the world-eater, a living yin and yang, if you will. Then, I guess in the middle, the bumbling Dovahkiin who battles for the continued existence of mortals.

[Lachdonin]

 

This gained even more gravitas (great word, right?), after I stumbled upon a book in High Hrothgar, i think titled "The Alduin and Akatosh Dichotomy", that went on to explain that everyone but the Nords believe that Alduin and Akatosh are the same entity. Either the Nords know what they're talking about, or I just beat the crap out of Deity Numero Uno! I like to think that they might be the same, but like different forms of the same higher-entity. Not to cause further argument by bringing more religion into it, but it could be something like the Christian view of the Holy Trinity. Here we have two dragons, the life-giver and the world-eater, a living yin and yang, if you will. Then, I guess in the middle, the bumbling Dovahkiin who battles for the continued existence of mortals.

 

 

This is kind of a representation of the deeper 'truth' of the TES universe. Alduin IS Akatosh, but not the same as Auri'El, Alkosh, Tosh'Raka etc. When the Selective did their Lorkhan-Dance and broke the dragon, they fundamentally changed what the Dragon of Time was. They super-imposed their image of Akatosh over the purity of Auri'el, tainting the Dragon (Auri-El) with the Doom Drum (Lorkhan) and creating a schizophrenic 'Onion' god who is constantly shedding semi-sentient reflections based on the worship of mortals. This is why most scholars just view the various Dragon Gods as aspects of Akatosh. Because they are, even if they're also independent gods on their own.

 

But, Alduin is something else. He's a fragment that was sundered during the creation of Mundus. Auri'el-Akatosh represented all of time, past, present and future. When he gave himself to Mundus, part of him was separated, and manifested as Alduin. Alduin is the END of time. He is the end of the world, the absolute, unavoidable end of everything. When he wins (and he will, eventually) the world ends, and time resets to the Convention, to start again from the beginning.

[ponyboy10]

 

 

This gained even more gravitas (great word, right?), after I stumbled upon a book in High Hrothgar, i think titled "The Alduin and Akatosh Dichotomy", that went on to explain that everyone but the Nords believe that Alduin and Akatosh are the same entity. Either the Nords know what they're talking about, or I just beat the crap out of Deity Numero Uno! I like to think that they might be the same, but like different forms of the same higher-entity. Not to cause further argument by bringing more religion into it, but it could be something like the Christian view of the Holy Trinity. Here we have two dragons, the life-giver and the world-eater, a living yin and yang, if you will. Then, I guess in the middle, the bumbling Dovahkiin who battles for the continued existence of mortals.

 

 

This is kind of a representation of the deeper 'truth' of the TES universe. Alduin IS Akatosh, but not the same as Auri'El, Alkosh, Tosh'Raka etc. When the Selective did their Lorkhan-Dance and broke the dragon, they fundamentally changed what the Dragon of Time was. They super-imposed their image of Akatosh over the purity of Auri'el, tainting the Dragon (Auri-El) with the Doom Drum (Lorkhan) and creating a schizophrenic 'Onion' god who is constantly shedding semi-sentient reflections based on the worship of mortals. This is why most scholars just view the various Dragon Gods as aspects of Akatosh. Because they are, even if they're also independent gods on their own.

 

But, Alduin is something else. He's a fragment that was sundered during the creation of Mundus. Auri'el-Akatosh represented all of time, past, present and future. When he gave himself to Mundus, part of him was separated, and manifested as Alduin. Alduin is the END of time. He is the end of the world, the absolute, unavoidable end of everything. When he wins (and he will, eventually) the world ends, and time resets to the Convention, to start again from the beginning.

 

Whoa. :mind blown: I really have to read up on my ES lore :)

[BrettM]

 

Whoa. :mind blown: I really have to read up on my ES lore :smile:

 

Problem is that they never really give it to you straight in-game. For example, The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy "proves" that the two are identical because the Nord tales of a black dragon who eats the souls of the dead and led the dragons on a war against mankind are simply unbelievable. We know that those tales are true, but that doesn't prove the opposite case that the two are totally separate (Alduin ent Akatosh), much less instruct us on the nuanced view regarding Alduin having individual characteristics fragmented from the original Akatosh.

[ponyboy10]

 

 

Whoa. :mind blown: I really have to read up on my ES lore :smile:

 

Problem is that they never really give it to you straight in-game. For example, The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy "proves" that the two are identical because the Nord tales of a black dragon who eats the souls of the dead and led the dragons on a war against mankind are simply unbelievable. We know that those tales are true, but that doesn't prove the opposite case that the two are totally separate (Alduin ent Akatosh), much less instruct us on the nuanced view regarding Alduin having individual characteristics fragmented from the original Akatosh.

 

True. It's a really interesting concept, and maybe there are different interpretations. Like you said, I do wish they would divulge more details in-game for those that are interested, but I guess that's life. I'm probably still a noob to the ES universe, but I felt the same way with the Thalmor involvement in Skyrim. I'm not sure I still understand it all, but it seems like you have to piece a lot of things together.

Edited March 12, 2014 by ponyboy10

[Lachdonin]

 

True. It's a really interesting concept, and maybe there are different interpretations. Like you said, I do wish they would divulge more details in-game for those that are interested, but I guess that's life. I'm probably still a noob to the ES universe, but I felt the same way with the Thalmor involvement in Skyrim. I'm not sure I still understand it all, but it seems like you have to piece a lot of things together.

 

 

One of the great things about TES lore (and something which i think is threatened by C0DA and it's hippy-love-in-everything-and-nothing-is-canon) is that all of our information comes from In-Universe sources. We don't have a writer off to the side telling us the 'truth'. We have to piece it together based on the understanding of those within the universe its self, with some rare insights into the world from the devs.

 

That Alduin IS the end of the world is one of those rare insights. Both Howard and MK have said that Alduin eats the world at the end of the Kalpa, resetting time, and that he will eventually get his nom on. Beyond that, it's mostly about trying to piece together the insight of in-universe scholars, who in many cases are just as confused as we are.

[ponyboy10]

 

 

True. It's a really interesting concept, and maybe there are different interpretations. Like you said, I do wish they would divulge more details in-game for those that are interested, but I guess that's life. I'm probably still a noob to the ES universe, but I felt the same way with the Thalmor involvement in Skyrim. I'm not sure I still understand it all, but it seems like you have to piece a lot of things together.

 

 

One of the great things about TES lore (and something which i think is threatened by C0DA and it's hippy-love-in-everything-and-nothing-is-canon) is that all of our information comes from In-Universe sources. We don't have a writer off to the side telling us the 'truth'. We have to piece it together based on the understanding of those within the universe its self, with some rare insights into the world from the devs.

 

That Alduin IS the end of the world is one of those rare insights. Both Howard and MK have said that Alduin eats the world at the end of the Kalpa, resetting time, and that he will eventually get his nom on. Beyond that, it's mostly about trying to piece together the insight of in-universe scholars, who in many cases are just as confused as we are.

 

Yeah -- as frustrating as it is, it's also really insightful to be muddling through the "truth" as would a real person in Tamriel. Assuming that's their plan (and not just laziness :)), kudos!

 

I am still curious about the conspiracy that was hinted at regarding why Alduin returned when he did. For the early part of the game, it seemed like it was leading up to someone being behind it, but at the end it was presented as just a big coincidence. Is that correct? I guess it would make sense and with the Civil War starting up, both sides would likely be very suspicious of each other. Also regardless of when Alduin would have returned, knowing those crazy Nords, there likely would have been some type of strife going on.

[BrettM]

 

I am still curious about the conspiracy that was hinted at regarding why Alduin returned when he did. For the early part of the game, it seemed like it was leading up to someone being behind it, but at the end it was presented as just a big coincidence. Is that correct?

 

Yes. The presumed "conspiracy" was a matter of paranoid thinking by Delphine and the Thalmor. Each would suspect the other of being behind anything untoward, up to and including bad weather.

 

Remember that the dragons had been gone for centuries and few knew anything about them. The possibility that dragons were intelligent beings that might have their own agendas never occurred to either Delphine or the Thalmor. Neither considered the idea that a dragon might take action on its own without any man or mer behind it. Until we rescued Esbern, no one (other than the Greybeards) knew that the black dragon was Alduin. The idea that dragons had language and purpose was only found in dusty old books and silly ancient tales.

 

Delphine (not to mention the rest of the Blades) had always dismissed Esbern as a crank on the subject of dragons and never paid attention to anything he had to say on that topic. The Thalmor knew only that the lost archives of the Blades were reputed to contain old dragon lore and that Esbern was the only living link to that information.

[madcow12]

Also when you meet delphine in riverwood, you see several spots of dragon burial grounds that have been resurrected (as in marked empty with a circle) and that the NEXT one is kynesgrove (and if there had been no previous, then there is no such thing as "next")

she connects previous dots to figure out where to dot it next. she had it marked on the current day map of skyrim based on the unearthed places, but didn't know where all the dragons were buried and so couldn't figure out where the next dot would be. thats where the dragonstone comes in, as it marks the spot. then she compares the two and finds the nearest one.

 

i'm not sure if i am right but how i understood it was that some dragons had been already resurrected between the time meeting delphine and at the release from helgen, or even earlier, hence the dragons already inhabiting the word walls around various locations. why they didn't bother to re-attack mankind or so is unclear, maybe because they remember before they died that alduin got banished and they lost the war, and now alduin is resurrecting them again he perhaps told them to recover their strengths. maybe some made their way to the portal to sovngarde (forget the name) and to guard it and resurrect the dragon priest there to keep the portal open for dragons to go and feast on unknowing souls which have just entered sovngard realm. if someone could translate the talk between the two dragons at kynesgrove i think it would add more insight (like what does "sulyksezun krujik?" mean?). perhaps the dialogue is something like

 

oh i'm alive?! what the? lord alduin is that you?

yes salokanir i am back to take my lordship we need to regain our strength

(you come with delphine) oh look its the so called dragonborn-weak LOLZ

"you cannot speak our tongue, yet you call yuorself dovah" (which is kinda funny line cuz the character never "speaks" one line in the whole game, like a mute. he will use psychokinesis to convey his/her thoughts and replies to shopowners, questgivers, and so forth)

dude salokanir get rid of this weakling that calls himself dovah (flies away)

salokanir gets killed, alduin feels a dragon soul being absorbed by another, guesses that it's salokanir after he kills the weak dragonborn, doesn't bother to turn back

 

as for helgen, i'm with the theory that he sensed dragon blood, as in motion detectors picking up motion, but not the homing kind that we see in Aliens but those simple sensors we have nowadays. knows its there but can't quite pinch it because of the human part camoflauging the dragonborn. and so he destroys the place, but seeing that the resistance the imperial soldiers put up being very futile, dismisses it as a futile feeling, that the supposed dragonblood he felt isn't much since no one there put up a significant fight with him and just flies off.

 

if i remember my directions right, when emerging from the cave and seeing alduin leave, he heads in the direction of kinesgrove, which seems to suggest he has already visited the other graves, and it was turn for kynesgrove when the helgen thing happened. also that the order of the quests is MQ first, then the other side factions. and you have to remember, your character starts weak because that's how RPGs gotta role, you start weak with no power then work your way up. but if it's a real story, the hero already has enough capability to push himself through the world; what he experiences is just stuff to help fulfill the potential that is currently used only in portions to make the hero something a little bit more than the best mortal (not average, mind you, but best).

 

but then at this point, another question is mulminir comes from the direction of falkreath. that is completely out of the order of the graves. so where'd he come from? perhaps he came from a different direction, flew over to falkreath and southern Reach, then came back to prance some more. not attacking cities is more of a game design i think, because the gates and insides of each hold is separate zones.