Oddjob83 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't have a lot of time these days, so I'm afraid I can't respond as thoroughly as I'd like to, but I will say this: I really like the idea of having a vampires bite (by the player, in whatever form that "bite" takes, which is likely to be a super close range spell) having a small change to turn the AI into a...something. A thrall is possible, but an army of thralls seems very...overpowered, and the crime/detection system in game isn't advanced enough to create significant risk/suspicion as you make more. Zombies are not at all vampiric, but...they seem somewhat more balanced. Thoughts? well If anyone you bit joined your faction but didnt leave with you could potentially "turn" a whole town. Image getting caught for a failed pickpocket and everyone in the market place helps you kill the guard, then the whole town could errupt. or only limit the player to "turn" members of the opposite sex. and maybe even guards as well. just a thought. Or a Thrall sure, but the kind that disintegrate when they die unlike the current spell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MofoMojo Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I don't have a lot of time these days, so I'm afraid I can't respond as thoroughly as I'd like to, but I will say this: I really like the idea of having a vampires bite (by the player, in whatever form that "bite" takes, which is likely to be a super close range spell) having a small change to turn the AI into a...something. A thrall is possible, but an army of thralls seems very...overpowered, and the crime/detection system in game isn't advanced enough to create significant risk/suspicion as you make more. Zombies are not at all vampiric, but...they seem somewhat more balanced. Thoughts? well If anyone you bit joined your faction but didnt leave with you could potentially "turn" a whole town. Image getting caught for a failed pickpocket and everyone in the market place helps you kill the guard, then the whole town could errupt. or only limit the player to "turn" members of the opposite sex. and maybe even guards as well. just a thought. Or a Thrall sure, but the kind that disintegrate when they die unlike the current spell. Last night I implemented a new perk "Attack for Blood" and modified the feed action for "Thirst for Blood" too. When you "Feed" on someone you will do 25% of their total health worth of damage. Now that sounds like a lot, but there's only two times you can feed on someone. 1) When they are asleep and 2) I added the ability to feed on someone when they are "Bleeding out" during combat. People only bleed out when they have...i dunno, less than 10% of their health. The cool thing I added is that if you KILL someone in this manner and you're of equal or higher level to the NPC, it will reanimate them for 5 minutes to assist you by your side. It's a start! -MM Edit: BTW OddJob, I like your idea of feeding on a victim adds them to your faction so they come to your defense if you're attacked in town. Although it may be unlikely that you're attacked in town but that could be interesting. The only thing I might change to that is NOT allowing you to feed on essential characters. Edited February 10, 2012 by MofoMojo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddjob83 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 that makes good sense, for the no essentials. say you wanted to murder some one/kill something, no guards around like farmsteads/mills instead of regular people running away they jump in with Vampiric Drain at least. I had never really envisioned it being game changing, but adding some charm to the Vampire mystique. thought it would be fun, like in a movie when a noted vampire is confronted and turns out everyone in the room is too, like the Hellsing movie with Hughe Jackman. like when you fast ravel to a town right now and everyone attacks you cause it took 2 days to come from Solitude. instantly, and from quite far away, you are a target. maybe then the people you've turned don't attack. Seems kinda odd running around physically biting people on the neck to feed, but you can get the disease from just being drained from a distance away. Hell to make things a lot more interesting, I'd love to have a "Sneak Feed" feature, as long as you do it from behind or coming out of invisible, and they are unaware, the person wont fight back and when you are done they would be "dazed" or calmed instantly. so long as you did this with out anyone else see it you could do it with no repercussions. Cause trying to find a sleeping person in the wilderness is virtually impossible, also making entering a populated town equally impossible, but unaware bandits are easy prey, and using your feed method, kill and turn them too if they are weak enough and they will help as well for 60 seconds. and for kicks have it only work at night if you think it may be unbalanced, or if they come back they are only level 5 regardless of pre-death/pre-turning level. So they'd be a presence, but not army building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MofoMojo Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 that makes good sense, for the no essentials. say you wanted to murder some one/kill something, no guards around like farmsteads/mills instead of regular people running away they jump in with Vampiric Drain at least. I had never really envisioned it being game changing, but adding some charm to the Vampire mystique. thought it would be fun, like in a movie when a noted vampire is confronted and turns out everyone in the room is too, like the Hellsing movie with Hughe Jackman. like when you fast ravel to a town right now and everyone attacks you cause it took 2 days to come from Solitude. instantly, and from quite far away, you are a target. maybe then the people you've turned don't attack. Seems kinda odd running around physically biting people on the neck to feed, but you can get the disease from just being drained from a distance away. Hell to make things a lot more interesting, I'd love to have a "Sneak Feed" feature, as long as you do it from behind or coming out of invisible, and they are unaware, the person wont fight back and when you are done they would be "dazed" or calmed instantly. so long as you did this with out anyone else see it you could do it with no repercussions. Cause trying to find a sleeping person in the wilderness is virtually impossible, also making entering a populated town equally impossible, but unaware bandits are easy prey, and using your feed method, kill and turn them too if they are weak enough and they will help as well for 60 seconds. and for kicks have it only work at night if you think it may be unbalanced, or if they come back they are only level 5 regardless of pre-death/pre-turning level. So they'd be a presence, but not army building. OddJob, again, I like the idea of a successful feeding somewhat "Charming" or "pacifying" the victim. Maybe a failed attempt would turn them against you. I'll have to figure out more about how factions interchange and try that out. We do plan to eventually have the higher level vampire "Attack on Sight" by city guards and such, but also have a spell planned out which will "Charm" those in your vicinity so you they don't see you for what you really are. Of course, that will drain magicka (or something). As for feeding on bandits, it's next to never that you can sneak up on a bandit camp and actually have a chance to feed off of a bandit, hence the ability to feed as an attack. We're going to implement a type of hunger meter. I'm not sure that it will be visible but I'd like there to be visible queues that you are starving (say a red tint to the screen, or detect life starts kicking in). Anyway, each "Feeding" will fill this value up a bit. How much is yet to be determined. Interesting ideas so far! -MM I'm not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXxKurokazExXx Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 When will the first version release? I can't wait anymore :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeira Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 This sounds verry great and the best is: It's not only ideas but you have allready realized some of the ideas. I thought about making a Vampire Mod myself but I am new to modding so I would need months or years to do something as good as your mod will be.When you release your final mod (or parts of it for us to play-test), could you please describe a few things (not only what you have done but in a very short way how you have done it)? This way everyone could modify little things (more time slow on bow zoom, a different speed mult. or whatever) themselves and don't bother you with "Could you please make a version with x and y?" But to the mod itself: I think that drinking blood infight is very important, because only drinking from sleeping people feels kind of... old (like in the very old Dracula movies).And your idea to make "detect life" turn on when hungry is great and much better then a hungry-bar over the health bar or wherever. It's more realistic to feel the hunger (detect life turns of if you want it or not) instead of just seeing a bar that fills up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakisthe Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Well, I was thinking that during-fight blood drinking could be done by the auto health drain of weapons at the 4th lvl, progenitor. Not as elegant, but I don't really think stopping the fight for us to try and shoehorn in a drinking mechanic otherwise would end up very clean either >_> Oddjob, you raise an interesting idea. How about:-lvl 1: sneak to enter "bite mode", which allows you to drain blood from someone instead of pickpocketing them (the option to do so would still be there; like the blood collecting quest for septimus). Drains 25% of their health ever 2 seconds, and does nothing to the person in question. Has same chance of being detected as pickpocketing with a check every second, but otherwise not counted as aggressive. -lvl 2: Same as lvl 1, but now, if they die to the bite, raises them as an undead for 60 seconds (think of it as a weak thrall) -lvl 3: Same as lvl 3, but now "charms" the target iff unseen to begin with so they don't move/notice at all while you feed on them whilst hidden. Basically, takes away the stealth check carried out by the target. -lvl 4: Same as 3, but now raises them as a full blown follower (ie, a normal thrall) -lvl 5: Now turns the target into a thrall follower with a chance of {[(P)^2]100}%, where P=the percentage of health drained expressed as an integer (not a decimal). Assuming this change is triggered, the actual "turn" effect takes place after finishing feeding. Thus, it gives sires a chance to create a thrall without killing, but it scales to 100% exponentially instead of linearly (so you don't accidentally make them left and right while feeding). What's more, anyone besides the target (and including the target for lvls 1 and 2) can see the player feeding, which instantly adds 2000 gold to their bounty. What's more, every thrall multiplies your max sneak lvl used in the feed/noticed while feeding check by 0.75, as to mimic the effect of creating a larger and larger army more and more suspicious, as well as increasingly difficult to do stealthily. At 3 followers, no one in the hold (and only the hold where the people came from) sleeps. The stealth minimizing holds true between holds, and however long the thrall is alive (as to not penalize a player who had a massive army, lost it, and wishes to begin anew but very much penalizing someone who travels over the entire world with 10 people in tow). Eh? Eh? How's that for working in thralls, charmed feeding, and fear from townsfolk? Leeira, that's...up in the air. Obviously, first and foremost we want to create a good vampire experience without the need to change much, but I know I can't get everything right in balancing it, so..uh...maybe? Lol. It's a ways away to begin with :P Edited February 14, 2012 by Jakisthe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeira Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Sounds great with the stealth check every second and the possibility to have an army.Somewhere else here I read about the idea to be able to drink from sumbling enemies in fight. So we could drink from sleeping, "pickpocket" blood when out of fight and be able to drink from stumbling enemies in fight. That would be great because: Many possibilities + more "realism" = more fun. I would like much more damage out in the sun, a vampire should not see the sun anymore (when lvl 1 maybe you can survive dawn and sunset a few secounds but after 2-5 seconds *pew* a pile of ashes.) To make it possible to get new quests, could you make the NPC sleeping time shorter so that they stay outside where they give you quests for the first 1-2 houres of night? As far as I know you would not need to change every single npc but "simply" change the default templates they use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MofoMojo Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Sounds great with the stealth check every second and the possibility to have an army.Somewhere else here I read about the idea to be able to drink from sumbling enemies in fight. So we could drink from sleeping, "pickpocket" blood when out of fight and be able to drink from stumbling enemies in fight. That would be great because: Many possibilities + more "realism" = more fun. I would like much more damage out in the sun, a vampire should not see the sun anymore (when lvl 1 maybe you can survive dawn and sunset a few secounds but after 2-5 seconds *pew* a pile of ashes.) To make it possible to get new quests, could you make the NPC sleeping time shorter so that they stay outside where they give you quests for the first 1-2 houres of night? As far as I know you would not need to change every single npc but "simply" change the default templates they use. Leeira, Yeah, some stuff I'm half-hazardly implementing while working on the mod just to test the fun factor. For instance, feeding off of NPCs that are bleeding out in combat and having it re-animate them if they died from the feed attack (and they're not higher level than you). Right now for play testing I have 1 unit of damage per second in full sunlight (Player.GetLightLevel >= 100) and believe me, with 200 health that goes QUICKER than you think. Shade while outdoors will protect you and you get a visible indicator something is wrong, by being on fire for a few moments, and then your health meter is dropping. Additionally playtesting another idea. It's impossible to keep the player OUT of trespassing areas, so I've applied the same weakness when in sunlight to when trespassing. I.e. you can trespass, but you'll take damage while doing it and lose abilties such as health regen, etc,. Just playtesting some ideas, not saying it's part of the end vision... As for sun damage. I think a fledgling should lose it's bonuses, but probably take no damage from sun. They've just recently changed. Higher than that they should take damage, but not so much that someone say, at level 30 would die in 5 seconds even at the highest level of vampirism. Even player's around 75 with a potential MASSIVE health pool should be able to survive just because their bodily health is so high. While restricting the player to.... nightly movement only.... makes sense from some lore, doing so would probably be more.... restrictive to the player's enjoyment of the mod. I want them to have a sense of impending danger by being in the sun, but not a sense of dread. I actually don't like being forced to play the game during it's night time hours, crazy...I know. But.... it is ENTIRELY possible to scale the damage depending on the time of day too. There's several approaches. I thought of making damage 100% based on whether you're in the daylight and what the lightlevel was. i.e. the lightlevel would be a base multiplier of the damage. So if the damage was 2 per second, and the light level was 95 you took (2 * 95 / 100) or 1.9 per second. Consequently if the light level is 150, you'd take 3 per second. There are several challenges to all of these implementations. 1) Certain lighting mods actually INCREASE the daytime light levels, 2) ambient effects such as magic, fire will increase the light level, and 3) Someone might release a mod that modifies the maxlightlevel for exteriors (which is 150) that could REALLY impact the implementation. Alternatively, the application of the damage spell could apply a different magnitude of effect based on the hour of the day. Suppose at the HIGHEST level of vampirism the following happens (these are arbitrary values). At dawn (say 5-7) you take 1 dmg/sec, 8-10 you take 2 dmg/sec, 11 take 3/sec, noon 5/sec, 1 - 3/sec, 2-4 2/sec, 5-7 1/sec, and then it's done. All ideas... this stuff can be tweaked relatively easily. I think playtesting from others and what we want from the mod at a personal level will ultimately dictate our choices. I said this on a private conversation with a "beta test" request. What I or Jakisthe find fun may be a total drag for most people or the other way around. We'll find a happy medium for most things I think. -MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elricshan Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Sounds great with the stealth check every second and the possibility to have an army.Somewhere else here I read about the idea to be able to drink from sumbling enemies in fight. So we could drink from sleeping, "pickpocket" blood when out of fight and be able to drink from stumbling enemies in fight. That would be great because: Many possibilities + more "realism" = more fun. I would like much more damage out in the sun, a vampire should not see the sun anymore (when lvl 1 maybe you can survive dawn and sunset a few secounds but after 2-5 seconds *pew* a pile of ashes.) To make it possible to get new quests, could you make the NPC sleeping time shorter so that they stay outside where they give you quests for the first 1-2 houres of night? As far as I know you would not need to change every single npc but "simply" change the default templates they use. Leeira, Yeah, some stuff I'm half-hazardly implementing while working on the mod just to test the fun factor. For instance, feeding off of NPCs that are bleeding out in combat and having it re-animate them if they died from the feed attack (and they're not higher level than you). Right now for play testing I have 1 unit of damage per second in full sunlight (Player.GetLightLevel >= 100) and believe me, with 200 health that goes QUICKER than you think. Shade while outdoors will protect you and you get a visible indicator something is wrong, by being on fire for a few moments, and then your health meter is dropping. Additionally playtesting another idea. It's impossible to keep the player OUT of trespassing areas, so I've applied the same weakness when in sunlight to when trespassing. I.e. you can trespass, but you'll take damage while doing it and lose abilties such as health regen, etc,. Just playtesting some ideas, not saying it's part of the end vision... As for sun damage. I think a fledgling should lose it's bonuses, but probably take no damage from sun. They've just recently changed. Higher than that they should take damage, but not so much that someone say, at level 30 would die in 5 seconds even at the highest level of vampirism. Even player's around 75 with a potential MASSIVE health pool should be able to survive just because their bodily health is so high. While restricting the player to.... nightly movement only.... makes sense from some lore, doing so would probably be more.... restrictive to the player's enjoyment of the mod. I want them to have a sense of impending danger by being in the sun, but not a sense of dread. I actually don't like being forced to play the game during it's night time hours, crazy...I know. But.... it is ENTIRELY possible to scale the damage depending on the time of day too. There's several approaches. I thought of making damage 100% based on whether you're in the daylight and what the lightlevel was. i.e. the lightlevel would be a base multiplier of the damage. So if the damage was 2 per second, and the light level was 95 you took (2 * 95 / 100) or 1.9 per second. Consequently if the light level is 150, you'd take 3 per second. There are several challenges to all of these implementations. 1) Certain lighting mods actually INCREASE the daytime light levels, 2) ambient effects such as magic, fire will increase the light level, and 3) Someone might release a mod that modifies the maxlightlevel for exteriors (which is 150) that could REALLY impact the implementation. Alternatively, the application of the damage spell could apply a different magnitude of effect based on the hour of the day. Suppose at the HIGHEST level of vampirism the following happens (these are arbitrary values). At dawn (say 5-7) you take 1 dmg/sec, 8-10 you take 2 dmg/sec, 11 take 3/sec, noon 5/sec, 1 - 3/sec, 2-4 2/sec, 5-7 1/sec, and then it's done. All ideas... this stuff can be tweaked relatively easily. I think playtesting from others and what we want from the mod at a personal level will ultimately dictate our choices. I said this on a private conversation with a "beta test" request. What I or Jakisthe find fun may be a total drag for most people or the other way around. We'll find a happy medium for most things I think. -MM hmm how about an spell that opens a menu and there you can change how mutch health it should thake that way everybody wil be happy and can play watterer type of bloodsucker they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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