Ulfric Stormcloaks Victory Speech (Solitude)

[faifh]

The info found was vague and subject to interpretation. It is ugly but it does not necessarily damn him. Did he give info under torture or did he collude with the enemy? Did the Thalmor let him go with his knowing cooperation? Did it say that he was giving them info after he escaped their custody or did he simply allow Thalmor to have an audience with him before Markarth? All it really says is that the Civil War is good, they have used Ulfric and it is not possible to use him now but it may be possible to use him again.

 

Thats what it means saying he is an "asset", not an "agent" or anything like that. His cause and little civil war is useful to the Thalmor, and that gets over quite clear.

[JanusForbeare]

You can talk with both as they wander of the map. They'll send you to kill the remaining stormcloak camps. But they weren't hostile to me, so I didn't. They just give you pissed lines when you stamper through one of their camps.

 

Yeah, that's another silly oversight on Beth's part. You are told to clear out the camps, each of which is led by an essential officer. Unless you use the console or mods to remove his essential tag, Beth is basically sending you to your death.

 

Once all the soldiers are dead, though, it's fun to walk through the medical tents executing the wounded soldiers one by one.

 

WOUNDED STORMCLOAK: You've got a lot of nerve, coming here dressed as an Imperial Legionnaire!

 

PLAYER: I slaughtered your friends in their beds, and it's my clothing that bothers you? Shut up and die.

[thesapien]

The info found was vague and subject to interpretation. It is ugly but it does not necessarily damn him. Did he give info under torture or did he collude with the enemy? Did the Thalmor let him go with his knowing cooperation? Did it say that he was giving them info after he escaped their custody or did he simply allow Thalmor to have an audience with him before Markarth? All it really says is that the Civil War is good, they have used Ulfric and it is not possible to use him now but it may be possible to use him again.

 

Thats what it means saying he is an "asset", not an "agent" or anything like that. His cause and little civil war is useful to the Thalmor, and that gets over quite clear.

 

I didn't know all this because I've never completed either quests that far (only going so far as to defend Whiterun with the Imperials!), but it was something I'd already thought about, that a civil war benefits the Thalmor in many ways, so thanks for the confirmation!

 

(edit to remove my misguided question about why Ulfric was crossing the Skyrim border in the beginning. I thought he was leaving but he was returning, I guess, so nm)

Edited January 13, 2012 by thesapien

[Feanoro]

To be honest if you watch how Ulfric talks with Galmar during the Stormcloak storyline and what decisions he makes during the campaigns there is no way he could be working with or for the Thalmor. What that dossier refers to are most likely Thalmor machinations to inflame Ulfric's passions against the Empire leading to the Markarth incident. After that, Ulfric's resolve to rid Skyrim of all external influences grew past anything the Thalmor could possibly control.

 

As for the racism, there are many racist Nords in the game, but the Stormcloaks are a military faction aiming to liberate Skyrim of the Imperials and Aldmeri Dominion, NOT to persecute other races whose members just happen to live in Skyrim. You also have to keep in mind that Stormcloak cities are poor (Winterhold almost destroyed, Riften lead to thievery and crime by the Empire-loving Maven Black-Briar) so naturally they're resentful of ohter races doing so well in Imperial backed cities (whom we also are told receive quite a bit of coin from the Empire. Igmund, Jarl of Markarth even admits this at some point).

 

Also, a great counterexample to Ulfric's racism is Niranye in Windhelm, an Altmer that's doing quite well for herself. Also Nurelion, the owner of the White Phial is an elf as well who owns his own shop in Windhelm. The problem, as Niranye puts it, is that you will find ignorant people everywhere, what's important is to be flexible and befriend good people, not be too proud and stuck in your own ways like many of the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter.

[JanusForbeare]

Also, a great counterexample to Ulfric's racism is Niranye in Windhelm, an Altmer that's doing quite well for herself. Also Nurelion, the owner of the White Phial is an elf as well who owns his own shop in Windhelm. The problem, as Niranye puts it, is that you will find ignorant people everywhere, what's important is to be flexible and befriend good people, not be too proud and stuck in your own ways like many of the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter.

 

Bah, Niranye puts us down, but she still stops by the Cornerclub for her flin every night!

[faifh]

To be honest if you watch how Ulfric talks with Galmar during the Stormcloak storyline and what decisions he makes during the campaigns there is no way he could be working with or for the Thalmor. What that dossier refers to are most likely Thalmor machinations to inflame Ulfric's passions against the Empire leading to the Markarth incident. After that, Ulfric's resolve to rid Skyrim of all external influences grew past anything the Thalmor could possibly control.

 

As for the racism, there are many racist Nords in the game, but the Stormcloaks are a military faction aiming to liberate Skyrim of the Imperials and Aldmeri Dominion, NOT to persecute other races whose members just happen to live in Skyrim. You also have to keep in mind that Stormcloak cities are poor (Winterhold almost destroyed, Riften lead to thievery and crime by the Empire-loving Maven Black-Briar) so naturally they're resentful of ohter races doing so well in Imperial backed cities (whom we also are told receive quite a bit of coin from the Empire. Igmund, Jarl of Markarth even admits this at some point).

 

Also, a great counterexample to Ulfric's racism is Niranye in Windhelm, an Altmer that's doing quite well for herself. Also Nurelion, the owner of the White Phial is an elf as well who owns his own shop in Windhelm. The problem, as Niranye puts it, is that you will find ignorant people everywhere, what's important is to be flexible and befriend good people, not be too proud and stuck in your own ways like many of the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter.

 

You should talk free Free-Winter, before and after you liberated Windhelm, unless you want to argue its all just in his head.

[Eversjm7]

When I pray at the statue of Talos, I get a blessing and he heals my diseases. That's good enough for me to believe he is more than a man. The Thalmor should try praying at one of these things, might change their mind =p

[Khorak]

I took my sweet time choosing a side, joining the Imperial Legion at level 47.

 

Things that led to my decision:

 

1. The Forsworn were in a peaceful state and were already negotiating with the Empire to be recognized as a separate kingdom/province when Ulfric suddenly came on a rampage.

 

The Empire is not a good little boy in that affair. They told Ulfric he and his people would be allowed to freely worship Talos if he dealt with the problem. So he did. The Empire then balked at the Thalmor taking exception to allowing Talos worship, and cracked down on Ulfric....basically they stabbed him in the back after doing dirty work for them. You can pretty easily extrapole this as being pretty much the primary reason Ulfric no longer has any truck with the Empire; he tried working with it and it screwed him in favour of pandering to the Thalmor to deny Talos.....and now he's the bad guy for 'cleaning up' with their blessing.

 

2. And the dossier saying Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, albeit reluctant. In other words, he is a Thalmor spy. How difficult could it be to convince a power hungry guy? What if....

 

People continually bring this up and I have no clue how they can be so, frankly, incapable of basic reading comprehension. The document is hardly difficult to decipher, it's very explicit. The Thalmor captured Ulfric during the Great War and during usual processing, discovered he was the son of a Jarl of Skyrim. They thought this could be useful, so they told him that information he gave up under torture allowed them to take the Imperial City. This was a total lie. Everyone breaks under torture, it's a matter of time, so it's worthless to blame him for this, the real point is the Thalmor attempt to mess with him and make him an asset by making him thinking he was already a traitor (he wasn't, the City had already fallen, nothing he told them was of use). Such a person would likely believe they no longer have any option but to work with their previous captors because they're already a traitor.

 

This didn't work out. During the 'Markarth Incident' the Thalmor attempted to directly communicate with Ulfric....it doesn't seem to have gone well because they immediately considered him 'unco-operative' and his entire life now consists of turning Skyrim into a First Empire style Nordic military juggernaught that can turn Thalmor into quivering piles of hacked apart flesh.

 

The biggest point to take away from the dossier is that the only outcome that works for the Thalmor is the Civil War continuing. It completetly screws them over for either side to win. This is so the player can sit in their chair and feel all smug knowing that, no matter which side they chose, they stuck something large and blunt right up the Thalmors vulnerable bum.

 

Thalmor: Hey prisoner, do you want to be king of a Skyrim without the Empire?

Ulfric: I'm listening

Thalmor: We don't really like you worshipping Talos, but you seem to really like it. We're winning the war, so if we win, will impose a ban on Talos worship...

Ulfric: You sons of ....

Thalmor: We'd like you to start a rebellion in Skyrim. Then we crush the empire from North and South. You rule the North and worship wheoever you like, then we get the South.

Ulfric: Deal.

 

That's...basically made up nonsense that ignores literally everything we know. And we know a hell of a lot, especially considering we're working with the Thalmors own unbiased opinion on the matter. Ulfric isn't a spy. That much is painfully explicit.

 

3. The Khajit caravan story. When I was in Windhelm, some guy told me of the story of two caravans set upon by bandits. One was a Nord caravan, which the soldiers saved. The Khajit caravan was well, the Stormcloaks watched from the walls as the bandits attacked them.

 

The choice between the two sides is that the Empire has become an institutionally corrupt dump which even after 20 years had pitifully failed to restore itself*, but has a seemingly alright guy like Tullius in charge, against the Stormcloaks who are very clearly vibrant and eagerly willing to forge ahead, rebuild and generally bother to get out there and work for it, but are led by a guy who's frankly somewhat distasteful. So what do you want to choose? Help the Empire and hope it can reverse the decay, or allow a vibrant new Skyrim is rise up? People will, of course, feed you bulls*** nonsense that 'only the Empire can hold off the Thalmor', but that's an argument built on...uh....nothing really. The Empire itself is built on Cyrodiil having beaten the crap out of everyone else, there's no reason Skyrim can't become a mighty power....especially since people like pretending the Thalmor are unstoppable whilst failing to notice that their entire main army was completely obliterated at the Imperial City (Literally. It's hilariously rare for a battle to result in one side being killed to a man like that) whilst still having to maintain dominion over provinces being purged, and that the Summerset Isle is suspiciously the same size as pretty much every other province in the game. The Aldmeri Dominion are simply another Empire, but with Elves, and just as defeatable.

 

Ultimately, the choice is "which piece of s*** looks better to you". Because you're eating s*** either way. I'm blonde, so I prefer blonde s***. Every now and then I run through the game and eat Roman s*** instead. It all kinda tastes like s*** though.

 

*pro-tip, real life ancient countries and empires that aren't institutionally demolished easily brought themselves back to previous might in 20 years (often less), with the very inspiration of the Empire, the Roman Empire, doing this almost habitually considering that 15 years after ludicrously epic defeats by Hannibal, they were busily conquering Carthage....20 years is more than enough for a human population to have a couple of new generations. High Elves don't repopulate at the same prodigous rate humans do, if the Empire weren't completely broken down it should at this point be just as powerful, if not more, than it was at the start of the Great War whilst the Aldmeri Dominion is still attempting to replace it's armies in the middle of painfully holding down provinces it's actively purging. While it's most likely that Bethesda have NO DAMN CLUE when it comes to timescales, this isn't an excuse that can be used in-universe. The simple fact is that the Empire has utterly, pathetically failed to rebuild after 20 damn years. In such a case, considering the Skyrim civil war hasn't been on for more than a year or two and can't be used as an excuse, the Empire cannot be seen as anything but massively incompetent to the extent that it must be in horrific decline.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Khorak

[GoodfellowGoodspring]

Most underwhelming speech in history, why didnt he wait in till the city was back on its feet and still not on fire to begin with? He should have stood in the other courtyard outside the chapel with the thrones, this way he could put down any rebellious citizens while greeting the whole of Solitude.. before going back to where he came from reinstating a Jarl WHO HAD NO RIGHT TO BE THERE (i wanted to be Jarl) then let the game go boring again -_-

[justwannaddl]

When I pray at the statue of Talos, I get a blessing and he heals my diseases. That's good enough for me to believe he is more than a man. The Thalmor should try praying at one of these things, might change their mind =p

 

The only thing they'd probably get is arrested and killed for engaging in heretical activities.