Would'nt There Be a Bigger Religious Presence in a Post Apocolyptic World?

[TheVampireDante]

 

I'd close my door. They can shove it.

 

Damn faithless Imperial synth.

[Moksha8088]

If those two young Followers of Talos played their cards right and brought me a bottle of Honningbrew Mead to go with my Gwinnett's Stout, I might listen to tales of all the heroic battles leading up to the Book of Talos being buried. Perhaps a month later I might find myself being baptized in the Sea of Ghosts off the pier near the Old North Church in Boston.

 

Of course, that would call for a celebration with some two-hundred-year-old Salisbury Steak, more Gwinett's Stout, a Mirelurk Queen bake, and some Elsweyr fondue. Just hope homicidal Shield-Maiden Matilda does not show up drunk and want to behead the two missionaries.

[CiderMuffin]

 

A likely scenario for religious discussion could happen just about any Saturday afternoon when you are hanging around your pad in Diamond City just chillin' and knocking back a Gwinnett's Stout, when you hear a knock at the door and find two young men holding a Book of Talos and asking, "What do you know about Joseph Heimskr and would you like to learn more?" You look puzzled and ask, "What is it about?" By then one of the young men has put his foot in the door and explains, "It's all about great battles and how a savior was sent by Talos to save us from Alduin the World-Eater". By then you want to hear more so you invite them in and have them sit on the Vault-tec sofa to explain more about the story long suppressed by the synths of the Aldmeri Dominion.

I'd close my door. They can shove it.

 

Closing the door is to nice, I prefer to let them have a taste of my gatling laser. How dare they knock on the door of the Overboss!

[Fkemman11]

I do feel as though it's a bit of a missed opportunity in the series that it isn't recognized further. But Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas definitely had their moments. I think one thing to take from this is that anyone who's taking humanities classes or history classes will recognize that religion has existed in one way or another throughout human society. We tend to be fairly spiritual beings, even those of us who proclaim themselves as atheists can become spiritual in times of great crisis, and especially the agnostics among us. It should be noted as well that religion, mostly in the West, was not always a 100% of the population thing. There were always those who shied away from it.

 

We can draw back on the closest thing to the apocalypse happening in our history to the fall of Rome for instance. Not so much in the whole 'everyone was annihilated' part, which is unprecedented except for very early man, but for the vacuum that exists after the fall of civilization. Nobody could replace the role that Rome played in the West, just like how in the event of WWIII, nobody will be able to replace the role that, well, the civilized world plays. The times after Rome fell were called the Dark Ages, and we plunged into them for almost 1000 years. It will take at least that long for us to bounce back from an apocalypse of this format. Religion thrived in these days. Christianity was gaining power, but not exclusively. The pagan gods of the Saxons, the Norse, the Slavs, they may have peaked and valleyed, but they didn't really go away until, well, Christianity drove them out.

 

That being said, let's get back on topic. There is religion in Fallout, it's just few and far between for some reason. Mormonism exists. Joshua Graham and his flock. Daniel as well. An offshoot of Catholicism exists in the Abbey of the Road which Marsela in Point Lookout was a representative from. That's a monastery just west of the Commonwealth. Saint Monica's Church in Rivet City was also a Catholicism offshoot. Other than that, there are the tribal guys (more of which should honestly exist) who presumably have their own religions and cults. The Followers of the Apocalypse, many assumed they were types of Mormons. The Oasis tribals, they worshipped Harold. Some of Ashur's men were pious towards him. Caesar's Legion use the old Roman mythology to some extent because Caesar in the likeness of those before him, claims a tree from divinity.

 

So it does exist, but based on what we know from human history, it doesn't exist enough. Especially in Bethesda's games. Our survival instinct has to be pretty damn high on the chart for us to forego religion, and I mean high, as in, we're down to the last couple of thousands high. Even then it may persist. It should be fluid. The fact that it's mostly gone in Fallout 4, well that might be Bethesda just erring on the side of caution like how they (unrelated to religion) made every follower bisexual, it could also just be their laziness. In all honesty, as much as I love them, I kind of question Bethesda's ability anymore to actually make an interesting lore and story. Is it an oversight or a feature? It's both.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say Bethesda just didn't care about it fearing people could get upset about it, which is a shame. It's things like this, an almost complete absence of religion aside from a group of nuts cultists and one DC preacher who just preaches spirituality, that make the world of Fallout 4 just feel a tad bit emptier.

 

I would add to this by saying that the religious backgrounds of people help to give a sort of "moral structure" as one of the founding principals for any large community. Since morals translate into idealism or philosophy it is safe to say that a moral philosophy can then evolve into a set of religious principals and thus a religion.

 

The simple argument that religion would be necessary for any large society is that all citizens of such would need to agree to a common conduct among themselves. While this is not religion in and of itself- it would form the basis for such with spirituality being one of the next possible steps. It is human nature to evolve spiritually and not just mentally and physically.

 

Now people can argue about what degree of belief in a particular set of ideals would constitute a religion. But that is only speculation. Just because it is something that is not recognizable as a religion you know does not mean it should be arbitrarily dismissed as nonsense. Just because you do not adhere to those beliefs it would not be wise to dismiss those that do.

Now lets take the Forge for example. They are a small group of like-minded raiders that all devote themselves to a particular idea. While that idea may not sound like any religion you ever heard of it is a philosophical idea that could evolve over time to include ideals about spirituality.

 

And lets not forget that out of the many books still lying around at least a few of them would be religious texts. Mans curiosity about himself and the world around him would eventually lead some to read and possibly accept some of the ideas those books might outline. Granted people would be spending most of their time trying to survive- but not all. In those few moments perhaps in the evening in a place of relative safety with a full belly the need for sating an individuals curiosity might just lead them to pick up and read that strange book about one religion or another. :nuke:

[Moraelin]

As someone who actually took the time to read about world religions and their history, I would actually gladly dismiss all the nonsense that gets floated around as "hey, that's a religion too" these days. And I don't even particularly mean in this thread.

 

Saying that if we don't recognize somethiong as a religion, we should file it under religion anyway, makes about as much sense as saying that if I meet a new breed of animal, and can't figure out any criteria by which it would be a cat, I should file it under cat anyway. I mean, it has a head. Cats have heads. It must be a cat then, even if I can't recognize it as one :wink:

 

You are correct that some laws or morals could evolve into a religion -- if nothing else, it's easier to tell people "Cosmic Santa said so, and he's watching you", than to explain why it has positive economic or social effects -- but unless it actually acquired all the elements to count as one, it doesn't. It might eventually, but until then, it's not.

 

Just like someone's pet lizard might eventually evolve into a mammal, but until it actually has all the characteristics of a mammal, it's not one.

[Fkemman11]

As someone who actually took the time to read about world religions and their history, I would actually gladly dismiss all the nonsense that gets floated around as "hey, that's a religion too" these days. And I don't even particularly mean in this thread.

 

Saying that if we don't recognize somethiong as a religion, we should file it under religion anyway, makes about as much sense as saying that if I meet a new breed of animal, and can't figure out any criteria by which it would be a cat, I should file it under cat anyway. I mean, it has a head. Cats have heads. It must be a cat then, even if I can't recognize it as one :wink:

 

You are correct that some laws or morals could evolve into a religion -- if nothing else, it's easier to tell people "Cosmic Santa said so, and he's watching you", than to explain why it has positive economic or social effects -- but unless it actually acquired all the elements to count as one, it doesn't. It might eventually, but until then, it's not.

 

Just like someone's pet lizard might eventually evolve into a mammal, but until it actually has all the characteristics of a mammal, it's not one.

 

That is due mainly to religion not being based in fact. It is and forever will be based on philosophy. So no. Looking at an unknown philosophy one might dismiss it as being silly but they would not mistake it for something else. Now if you believe that what you looking at is a cat, then for you- it is. Philosophy and belief is not tangible or measurable or even perceptible. It is felt. You cannot prove a philosophy through mathematics or disprove it for that matter. But I don't think that a persons beliefs are to be taken lightly as in some cases this might have dire implications.

 

So again I say that Philosophy and in some cases religion are an integral part of mans existence. :happy:

[Flowerguy360]

 

As someone who actually took the time to read about world religions and their history, I would actually gladly dismiss all the nonsense that gets floated around as "hey, that's a religion too" these days. And I don't even particularly mean in this thread.

 

Saying that if we don't recognize somethiong as a religion, we should file it under religion anyway, makes about as much sense as saying that if I meet a new breed of animal, and can't figure out any criteria by which it would be a cat, I should file it under cat anyway. I mean, it has a head. Cats have heads. It must be a cat then, even if I can't recognize it as one :wink:

 

You are correct that some laws or morals could evolve into a religion -- if nothing else, it's easier to tell people "Cosmic Santa said so, and he's watching you", than to explain why it has positive economic or social effects -- but unless it actually acquired all the elements to count as one, it doesn't. It might eventually, but until then, it's not.

 

Just like someone's pet lizard might eventually evolve into a mammal, but until it actually has all the characteristics of a mammal, it's not one.

 

That is due mainly to religion not being based in fact. It is and forever will be based on philosophy. So no. Looking at an unknown philosophy one might dismiss it as being silly but they would not mistake it for something else. Now if you believe that what you looking at is a cat, then for you- it is. Philosophy and belief is not tangible or measurable or even perceptible. It is felt. You cannot prove a philosophy through mathematics or disprove it for that matter. But I don't think that a persons beliefs are to be taken lightly as in some cases this might have dire implications.

 

So again I say that Philosophy and in some cases religion are an integral part of mans existence. :happy:

 

 

Religion is an invention of man for several reasons:

 

1) For early man, it was a way to teach basic morality.

2) Government. Again, for early man, this was a way to set laws based on those moralities.

3) Mankind strives to find Reason in everything. If there is some divine force that has mankind's best interests at heart and has some Grand Plan, then that gives Reason to horrible events and we can find some kind of misguided comfort in that. Yep. There's some magical benevolent deity that manipulates us for our own benefit... because everyone needs THAT kind of love in their life. <.<

4) It solves the mystery of "After" and "Before" in regards to Death and Creation, respectively. Because while we may be able to conceive of the idea of an end to our own existence, it is anathema and unacceptable to conceive and accept the end of the existence of those we hold most dear. It is easier to believe their consciousness has moved on to another plane of existence (and I desperately hope that's true), but the reality is that we are most likely no different than cars that cannot be repaired. The spark is extinguished, and we just can't start back up again. It's gone. There is no replacing it. And it sucks. It is easier to accept a delusion that says there's more after all of this than it is to accept the reality that there is not.

5) Power and Control. Once everyone believes these things and is under this religious government, it gives power and control to those who decide what these rules and doctrine will be. See the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.

6) Class Warfare. Sell people on the virtues of poverty and how rich they are in other ways, and they will not strive as greatly for wealth. This means there is less competition for the wealthy and the poor are more easily placated.

7) Self-Preservation (of the species). Because if everyone knew there was no punishment and no reward after death, then they'd ultimately realize that NOTHING. MATTERS. Nothing is real, everything is permitted. There would be chaos and despair, and probably a good many more suicides if people weren't afraid of eternal damnation, or if people knew just how little ANY of us matter.

 

Religion is the world's biggest and oldest conspiracy, and we perpetrate and perpetuate it upon ourselves. I really wish I could have that gig, though: To be God? ALL of the credit, NONE of the responsibility. Because power like that would NEVER corrupt an ancient and unknowable being. And hey? If you don't understand God's motivations, don't dare to ask questions - just know that you can never understand them, because God is beyond understanding. In other words, if you have questions, God conveniently never has to answer them. Because He is GOD, and how dare you ask. But He loves you like the special little snowflake that you are. And he knows every sin you've ever committed.

 

When was the last time you kept track of how many bread crumbs Oscar the Ant stole from your cupboard? Do you really care?

 

Ultimately, Religion helped mankind to evolve and become civilized. Now, it serves only as justification for great evils to be perpetrated in God's name, and to give comfort to those grieving a loss. Speaking as someone who was raised as a Christian, I can honestly say that I wish I was not, because I feel like I've been sold a lie my entire life. If I'd known what to expect going in, maybe these realizations would not be as devastating as they were for me, personally. But that's me.

 

And this is supposed to be a thread about Fallout, and not existential dilemmas. :tongue:

Edited April 2, 2017 by Flowerguy360

[Moraelin]

Well, I'm not trying to discuss whether religion has a point or whether it has a place. I'm just saying that you need more than an ideology, a philosophy or a code of morals for it to be a proper religion. A religion does have some ideology, but not every ideology is a religion. A religion can prescribe certain morals or behaviours, but not every code of ethics is a religion. Etc.

 

As a trivial example, the US criminal code most certainly prescribes certain behaviours and forbids others, but it's obviously not a religion. We could imagine some post-apocalyptic situation where some people find an old copy of the criminal code and make it a part of their religion (might as well start somewhere, if you're going to give commandments) but then it's a part, not the whole.

 

Hell, there's even a game setting where some people found some pen-and-paper RPG manuals and decided to follow them religiously. Character classes and all. But then those rules become a part of the religion, they're not themselves a religion. Not everyone meeting in the basement to play the latest D&D module are cultists.

 

What I'm saying is that if we found something in the nuked MA that doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck, we wouldn't insist that it IS a duck just because it has webbed feet. We'd just find some other name and category for it.

 

Same thing with ideologies, is all I'm saying. If, as per post #74 we found some guys in the Commonwealth with some ideology that we don't recognize as a religion, then it's because it lacks key aspects of a religion, and then what I'm saying is that no, we shouldn't call it a religion.

 

Words have meanings. If it doesn't fit the meaning, then why should we use the same word for it? Is all I'm saying.

[Fkemman11]

Well I was trying to point out how religion might evolve in a post-apocalyptic world. There is quite a bit of skepticism about that though. And I never made any specific references to any one religious belief. So I would encourage others to refrain from doing so. Now as far as your opinion on religion and how it affects people that is not for me to judge. But you did say that it helps to bring a certain kind of order and there are other "benefits" as well.

 

Alas this is FO4 we are talking about. Where mankind is seemingly no longer interested in any silly pre-war notions. Indeed they might remember their grandparents telling them about such things and warning them that those ideas are better left buried in the past. Because a future is to be forged only by those that are strong- both in body and in mind. The broken world they inherit is only to be survived through focus and the automatic dismissal of any silly ideas. The attitude would be that we are what we are until the day we die. Science is the only thing worthy of attention because it is proven.

 

With this in mind our brave character sets out on a journey across the shattered remnants of the land in search of their loved one. And on this journey they will meet many a person and witness many strange things and have to make many, many decisions. Some of which do not fall neatly into the single minded logical approach. Because somewhere in there are buried some emotions and opinions that cause reason to doubt or to see past such rigid concepts. At the end of a day or a particular moment our hero might actually WANT to think about how they feel and try to understand their predicament. For if the world is populated by cutthroats and murderers and the like that give no thought to what they do and why they do it then what hope is left for humanity?

 

Just because the religions of yesteryear became corrupt and ultimately unacceptable does not mean that the founding principals for each did not have any significance. Indeed they must have or most of the worlds former population would not have believed in them. To put it quite simply logic may be able to help a person identify and categorize the world around them but it does nothing to explain the world or us. I think cold logic would make for an uncomfortable bed-partner during an often traumatic life-style. :nuke:

[Moraelin]

Well, I'm not talking about one specific religious belief either, nor about whether it's needed or not, but about the fact that the word has a certain meaning. If it evolves into something else, then it's something else.

 

If a pike evolves into a rifle (and it did: the first recorded firearms were the chinese fire-lance for cavalry), then the thing you go hunting with is a rifle, not a pike. You could even say that it fulfills similar roles. E.g., most people hunt for boars with a rifle, while in the past it was most commonly done with a specialized spear. So clearly the rifle fills the same role. But it's still a rifle, not a spear.

 

Same for religion, really. IF it ever turns into something that doesn't work like a religion any more, then we don't have to call it a religion any more.

 

 

Some of the associations people make with religion aren't even universal. E.g., just because in Europe the whole medieval philosophy of how to run a country was based on religion (specifically, Xianity), it doesn't mean that the same was also true in, say, medieval China. In fact it's the exact opposite: the idea of both government and proper social order were COMPLETELY outside the realm of religion, and didn't have the backing in any particular god.

 

For example in China, the thing that around the 10'th century even became MANDATORY to know by heart for anyone trying to get into any government job at all, and you had to pass a strict examination before they even looked at your resume, was actually Confucianism. Which is a philosophy.

 

You see sometimes Confucianism being mis-represented as a religion, because it filled that role in shaping the ideal way to run a country that Xianity filled in the west, but it's not. It's actually much ado about glorifying an idealized past. Confucius was obviously a religious man, but that's not how he justifies his rules. And that's not why he got to be the mandatory philosophy of medieval China. It's all really about how great everything was during the (romanticized and probably BS version of) Zhou dynasty (circa 1045 BC to 256 BC), and striving to return to that romanticized past.

 

And sure enough, you could mix it with any actual religion. You could be a Taoist and a confucian, or a Buddhist and a confucian, or, I'm not kidding, a Muslim and a confucian at the same time. Several notable figures, including the famous admiral Zheng He, were in fact both Muslim and confucian. Confucius was in awe of the heavens, but he didn't give you much in the way of what's up there, so virtually every confucian that ever lived, was also following some actual religion to fill those blanks.

 

 

Essentially, and if I'm going to not be nice (sorry), imagine the archetypal crotchety conservative old guy, going on and on about how perfect things were in the 50's, when men were men, women stayed in the kitchen, and busses were segregated like heavens intended them to be. And what a great way that would be to run a country. Bonus points if his version of the 50's is nothing like the real one. Now imagine him writing and co-authoring 5 frikken books about it, and getting a bunch of disciples listening to the great master says things should be. That is Confucius in a nutshell.

 

Now, granted, his talking points were not the ones of my crotchety old guy example, but that's the general gist of it. Just return China to 1000 years in the past, and make it great again. You keep your temples segregated (by rank, not race, but I'm not kidding) not because any god said so, but because it was that way during the Zhou dynasty, when everything was all milk and honey, darn it.

 

Hell, some of it, isn't even based on a TIME when everything was great, but on it being the way things were done in his home province. E.g., as an actual example, a child should cover up for a thieving dad or viceversa, because that's what's proper in Confucius's home province, darn it. Unlike those degenerates in other provinces, who go and snitch on their own kin, and then are even proud of it. Actual example from the Analects, I swear to Atom I'm not making it up.

 

 

Now again, I'm not saying you SHOULD follow a philoophy instead of a religion. In fact I just said that just about everyone mixed it with an actual religion. Just that not everything that fills some role that we associate with a religion in the west, was a religion in other places.